Transcript

Arielle Angel 00:00

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AA 01:11

Hello and welcome back to On the Nose, the Jewish Currents podcast. I’m Arielle Angel, editor in chief of Jewish Currents, and I’ll be your host for today. Today, we’re going to be talking about the flurry of activity from the Jewish liberal center-right in New York City and beyond to counter Zohran Mamdani’s, at this point, still likely election win, although who knows. To talk about that, we have three guests. Peter Beinart, editor at large of Jewish Currents. Hi, Peter.

Peter Beinart 01:44

Hi.

AA 01:45

Alex Kane, senior reporter of Jewish Currents.

Alex Kane 01:48

Hey there.

AA 01:48

And Simone Zimmerman, making her debut on the podcast, which is hard to believe, actually. Simone is an advisory board member of Jewish Currents and also the host of a new Zeteo show, Beyond Israelism. Simone, thanks for joining us today.

Simone Zimmerman 02:07

Shehecheyanu for me, I’m stoked to be here.

AA 02:08

So what has happened in the last week? Rabbi Cosgrove, who is the rabbi of Park Avenue Synagogue, a very fancy uptown synagogue, gave a sermon that very unequivocally said:.

Rabbi Cosgrove 02:22

I believe Zohran Mamdani poses a danger to the security of the New York Jewish community. To accept me as a Jew, but to ask me to check my concern for the people and state of Israel at the door is a nonsensical proposition and an offensive one, no different than asking me to reject God, Torah, mitzvot, or any other pillar of my faith.

AA 02:52

Ammiel Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue released a similar video.

Ammiel Hirsch 02:55

Anti-Jewish incidents are at an all-time high. Jewish students are harassed in New York City schools and college campuses. Jewish institutions are threatened daily. Rather than bringing New Yorkers together, you are fanning the flames of intolerance.

AA 03:11

And Bret Stephens, the same day, wrote a column in the New York Times saying roughly the same thing. So it really felt a little bit like a coordinated attack. The next day, a group calling itself the Jewish Majority put out a letter that repeated a lot of the points in Cosgrove’s sermon, that is signed by, at last count, 1,100 rabbis from around the country—basically saying that Judaism and Zionism are completely interlinked, that there is no Jewish identity without Zionism, and Mamdani is a threat to that and a threat to the safety of Jews in New York City. So, a lot going on, a real eleventh-hour push. The election is November 4th. What do we make of this? Alex, I’m going to start with you because I know you’ve been doing some reporting on this letter in particular. What is up with this letter? What can you tell us about it?

AK 04:09

So, yeah, there’s a lot to say about the letter. I guess the first thing is to explain what Jewish Majority is. They were founded last year as a new organization explicitly to counter Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, and Jewish Voice for Peace, and other left-wing Jewish organizations, calling them fringe and implying that, at least in Jewish Voice for Peace’s case, that it’s not really a Jewish organization. There’s one point on their website where they say that Jewish Voice for Peace allows non-Jews into the organization. They attacked JFREJ for, quote, “weaponizing health” by opposing legislation that sought to ban masks while protesting. Jewish Majority is founded by Jonathan Shulman, who worked for many years for AIPAC, doing pro-Israel mobilization in Jewish synagogues. So, not surprising that that’s the organization that organized this letter, but what is striking is the number of liberal Zionist rabbis that signed on to it. There’s over 50 members of the J Street Rabbinical Council on this letter. There are also rabbis that aren’t on the J Street Rabbinical Council but that have otherwise signed letters that oppose Israeli settler evictions of Palestinians. There are some who even signed the Jews for Food Aid letter, organized by Rabbis for Ceasefire against Israel’s weaponization of food.

AK 05:35

My reporting has basically focused on trying to understand why these liberal rabbis, who have liberal commitments in the United States and are very opposed to Netanyahu, nonetheless signed on to a letter against Mamdani. One thing that they’ve emphasized is that the red line for them is basically that Mandani has made comments that, in their mind, undermine the right of Jews to have a homeland of their own. So even though Mamdani obviously shares with them a commitment to ending Israel’s occupation, his anti-Zionism is a red line. Secondly, all of them said that he promoted the phrase “globalize the Intifada.” This has become a dominant narrative in the Jewish community, even though he’s never said the phrase. The notion that he endorsed this phrase, which they view as calling for violence against Jews, comes from a podcast interview before the primary, in which he sought to explain what he saw the phrase as meaning, which he took to mean a call for equality between Palestinians and Israelis. He has since said he discourages the use of the term. He doesn’t use it, he doesn’t think it’s clear, and he’s spoken to rabbis who have said it evokes memories of bus bombings, and so he’s not going to use it. And still, when I put this to them, and when I said: Well, what do you think about the fact that Mamdani has condemned antisemitism, said he’s going to have Zionists in his administration, said that he welcomes Jewish New Yorkers, he’s even said he wants to retain Jessica Tisch, a stalwart Israel supporter, to be head of the NYPD? They all say they basically don’t believe him. Which leaves Mamdani in a no-win situation. He can say all he wants; he can walk back any comment, he can do his best to include Zionist Jewish New Yorkers in his coalition—or at the very least in his vision for who belongs in New York City—it doesn’t matter. They simply are not going to believe him.

AA 07:35

Which is crazy, too, because even in his speech, Cosgrove said: The thing that motivated me to give this speech in the first place is the fact that at another synagogue in New York, Mamdani stood up and said, “I’m even going to have Zionists in my administration.” And he said the fact that he even had to say that shows that we are being marginalized as Jews.

Rabbi Cosgrove 07:56

When Mamdani says that Zionists are welcome in his administration, he may think he’s offering reassurance, but he is, in fact, revealing something much darker: the assumption that Jewish self-determination is an ideology to be tolerated rather than a birthright to be respected. The very need to say it, betraying a bias so deeply held by himself and his circle that it should make every one of us shudder.

AA 08:24

Like the fact that Mamdani promised: I’m not going to enforce my ideology. I’m not going to make sure that everybody in my administration has to hold that ideology—Cosgrove says: That’s the reason I’m giving this speech. I mean, the level of narcissism to basically say this is the ideology, this is the only ideology that should be accepted, it should never even have to be discussed, is pretty astounding. Peter, I want to jump to you because I know that we had a short conversation the other day, where you were feeling like Mamdani has been successfully winning over a certain kind of liberal coalition, but I think Alex’s picture kind of complicates that story, that there may be more of a split happening.

PB 09:08

Yeah, I mean, I think I see the glass as more half full than half empty. You have to look at this by historical standards. I mean, J Street is a Zionist organization. It did not endorse Rashida Tlaib; it even withdrew its endorsement from Jamaal Bowman. So historically, the bright dividing line about the question of whether you support Israel’s existence as a Jewish state has been very, very stark in American politics and American Jewish politics. I don’t think it’s surprising at all that many liberal Zionists would see that as a red line—in addition to BDS, which Mamdani also supports. To me, the more striking thing—the thing that’s really new here—is the willingness of some liberal Zionists to basically cross that line. That’s what I think is unprecedented, and you see a significant amount of that—less interestingly, I think—with rabbis than with politicians. So you have not just Brad Lander, who’s been a very important ally to Mamdani, but Jerry Nadler, who was the longest serving Jewish member of the House and a very kind of mainstream liberal Zionist figure. Micah Lasher, who was the frontrunner to succeed Jerry Nadler, and then a whole host of other New York State senators. Liz Krueger recently did an event for him, and even some rabbis, like Sharon Kleinbaum. These people all say, basically: We disagree with Mamdani on some things having to do with Israel/Palestine, but we’re still going to support him. So when you try to step back, it seems to me that what’s new here is any significant willingness by people to say that the dividing line between liberal Zionism and anti-Zionism is not the key divide, and to say, essentially: More unites us with Mamdani than separates us, and we’re closer to Mamdani than we are to Cuomo, even though we differ on this issue, which has been, essentially, the dividing line between what’s considered kosher and what’s considered treyf in institutional American Jewish life—and in American politics more generally when it comes to Israel—for several generations.

AA 11:05

Yeah, I mean, that’s a great point. I do want to talk a little bit about what the liberal side that is breaking for Mamdani looks like. I know, Simone, you were at the rally—13,000 people in Queens for Zohran—and came back with some real reflections on the Jewish politics of the rally. Brad Lander spoke. Sharon Kleinbaum also spoke. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what that felt like. How was the crowd reacting to them, and what were they putting out to the crowd?

SZ 11:34

Yeah. So for me, there’s this very strange dissonance between watching and experiencing the campaign itself—on its own terms and its own words—and then reading about the hysteria and the moral panic that is sweeping certain segments of the Jewish community. The campaign itself is this incredibly joyful, hopeful, inclusive, energetic space that is speaking to New Yorkers across the city of every single background. They’ve got so many different communities getting out there and canvassing, people who have never been involved in politics before. They’re making people excited to live in New York, excited about building a better city. The rally was another manifestation of that. I mean, I wrote this on Instagram jokingly, that I felt like I was at the hottest rock show in the city, but it really did feel there was this palpable, hopeful, joyful energy in this space. And again, counter to what we’re hearing from these kind of hysterical, right-wing Jews, you watch Brad Lander walk out onto the stage—Brad repeatedly calls himself a Zionist in public—he walks onto the stage; he’s greeted like a rock star. The crowd goes absolutely insane for him. He then gives a speech. He talks in his speech about: He’s happy that the hostages are home. He gets an applause. He believes in a future of safety and freedom for Israelis and Palestinians. He gets an applause. He says Jews and Muslims need to fight together for a better city. Again, the crowd goes crazy for him. And he says, also: We need to speak out and fight against the genocide in Gaza, and that does get the biggest applause line.

SZ 13:10

Then Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum spoke. She was part of the lineup of an imam and a pastor. And there was just, again, this beautiful constellation of faith leaders speaking about: What does it mean to build this progressive, inclusive city, and what Zohran’s win means for so many people who have been marginalized and overlooked in our politics. I know it’s a huge deal for Rabbi Kleinbaum was there. She deserves a ton of credit. I will say, I could feel that she was not comfortable in that space. Unlike almost every other speaker, she did not go out of her way to really praise Mamdani and to embrace him. She’s also the only person who got up and did that kind of like: We don’t agree on everything, but I don’t agree with everybody in my life about everything, but I’m really grateful that he wants to fight antisemitism. She got in a pause for that and then said: I’m here, as a rabbi, to speak out against the Islamophobia. She got a much bigger pause for that. I do have to say it was a shame that she didn’t use that opportunity to condemn the way that antisemitism and Jewish fears have been used to smear Zohran and to delegitimize and undermine the campaign. I think she could have spoken to that.

SZ 14:17

And then the other thing is, I think so much of this narrative rests on this idea that Zohran is this militant ideologue who does not have room for ideological diversity in his camp and is trying to enforce a particular line. I think Brad Lander is the counter to that. I think you can see that somebody who shows up in good faith to help build the coalition and to help widen the tent in good faith is really celebrated and embraced for that. I hope Rabbi Kleinbaum continues to show up and that more people like her continue to show up, and feel more comfortable in the space, and can see that as they embrace their role in being part of that tent, that they will receive the love in return. I hope for her that was a positive experience because I could tell that she didn’t feel totally at home there.

AA 15:02

That’s interesting. It’s also interesting, this evolution with Brad on genocide. I mean, he said—I think he said this on your Substack, Peter—he said: I don’t know why I never get asked why I don’t use the word genocide, even though all of these human rights groups have said that it’s a genocide. I never have to answer questions about that. Meanwhile, Zohran has to answer all these questions about “globalize the intifada.” Like, there’s something going on that doesn’t make sense. So it’s pretty interesting to see him, within a few months, embrace that term himself. I think that’s a great point—that the coalition that knows that Brad Lander still identifies as a liberal Zionist has embraced him as such because he’s become a part of the coalition.

SZ 15:49

The other thing I just want to say about this is: It is not Zohran who is forcing this conversation. He didn’t just walk into a synagogue to say: Guys, I’m just here to tell you I’m going to allow some Zionists in here. He’s getting asked about it constantly. And anybody who’s actually following the media spectacle around him—I mean, the question is being forced on him over and over and over again, to the point that it is a parody of itself. I mean, there’s nothing that encapsulates this better than the sneak question in the debate about if the mayoral candidates will show up to every parade.

Melissa Russo 16:22

Would you boycott any of the city’s parades?

Curtis Sliwa 16:24

No, I would not boycott any parade. It’s a mayor’s responsibility to be available to all racial, ethnic, and religious groups.

Andrew Cuomo 16:31

No, I wouldn’t, unless they discriminated.

Melissa Russo 16:33

Okay. Mr. Mamdani.

Zohran Mamdani 16:35

There are many parades that I would not be attending because I’d be focusing on the work of leading this city.

Curtis Sliwa 16:40

Which parades?

Zohran Mamdani 16:42

I’ve already missed a number of those parades because I’ve been trying to [crosstalk]

SZ 16:46

It’s such a joke. He’s trying to talk about affordability. Anybody who’s actually watching his videos, engaging with his campaign on its own terms—there is so much that he cares about that he wants to talk about. He is not trying to make the campaign a referendum on Israel and Zionism. It is Zionists who are trying to make the campaign a referendum on Zionism.

PB 17:03

The other point that’s in that same vein is this claim—a dominant theme in the argument that Mamdani is antisemitic—which is basically what people say without explicitly saying it in these critiques, is he’s antisemitic because he focuses so much attention on Israel. Why isn’t he really focused on human rights abuses in Myanmar? But of course, the irony is exactly the point that Simone’s making. None of these people give a damn about Myanmar themselves. None of them ever talk about that. All they talk about is defending Israel and attacking Mamdani on Israel. In fact, Mamdani’s human rights perspective is much more universal than theirs. Mamdani is against ethnonationalism. He’s been critical of Modi. He would certainly would not support US arms sales to Arab dictatorships like the UAE and Egypt. He always talks in universal terms about international law and human rights. But he gets accused of focusing on Israel by people who themselves do nothing but focus on Israel and, in fact, people who are much more willing than he is to overlook human rights abuses in other countries if those other governments are supportive of Israel. These are the people who love the UAE, and Saudi Arabia, and Egypt because those governments are sympathetic to Israel. So it just exposes the hypocrisy of this whole line of attack.

AA 18:19

I mean, Cosgrove literally says: What business does a mayor have talking about foreign policy anyway? And it’s like: Who made this a part of the conversation? It feels completely divorced from the last several decades of politics and the way that fealty to Israel is expected and expected to be asserted early and often. I mean, the literal, entire reason that Jewish Insider exists is to get every single candidate for every single office across the country on the record about this issue.

PB 18:49

Right. Did Cosgrove object when Cuomo said he would join Netanyahu’s legal team at the ICC because Cuomo shouldn’t be talking about foreign policy?

AK 18:57

I also don’t think it’s wrong to say that Israel gets outsized attention from the American left. I think that’s true, but there’s a reason for that. Israel is the number one benefactor of US military aid. I mean, the Biden administration gave Israel $14 billion to carry out a genocide. No other country gets that. No other foreign policy issue plays such a central role in American political life.

AA 19:20

And also, Israel has a status as a Western, quote, unquote, country, and what they do and the ways that they erode law reverberate differently in the world, for whatever reason, than the ways that countries in the developing world play in that regard. I want to move on to a few things about the nature of the way that they’re talking about, in all of these attacks, the very sizable minority of Jews who are siding with Mamdani, who plan to vote for Mamdani. The polls that we have suggest that 38% of New York Jews voted for Mamdani in the primary. I’m not really sure after all of these opposition attacks where it’s going to land in the general. But we know, from all available polling on how many Jews say that it’s a genocide, that the number—and I repeat this all the time—that the number of Jews who are at least sympathetic to anti-Zionist or non-Zionism is between 30% and 40% and goes up, I think, possibly to even 50% under 35. Nobody ever asked that question outright, but when you ask similar questions that correspond with anti-Zionist and non-Zionist viewpoints, you consistently turn up these numbers.

AA 19:20

And it’s interesting to me, this organization calling itself the Jewish Majority and putting all of this very misleading information about JFREJ and JVP on the website. I mean before, you never had to have an organization called the Jewish Majority. It’s like, the whole thing is like “the lady doth protest too much.” It is a sign of weakness to have to say: We are the Jewish majority. Especially in a moment where like, this is generational. Those people are going to die in the next 20 years, and there will be a whole new generation that doesn’t believe this. The pews in these synagogues are going to become emptier because of these positions. So, I think it’s pretty interesting just to think about the approach to this. Cosgrove in particular talks about this campaign, this get-out-the-vote campaign: Tell your children and your grandchildren not to vote for Mamdani and to put their Jewish interest first.

Rabbi Cosgrove 21:32

Our efforts have to be directed to where we have influence and where the needle can be moved. Those in the middle, the undecided, the ambivalent, the proudly Jewish yet unabashedly progressive, the affordability anxious, Netanyahu-wary, Brooklyn-dwelling, social media-influenced, who need to be engaged. In other words, other Jews. It’s these Jews, our friends and our family, who need to be persuaded to prioritize their Jewish selves.

AA 22:02

I guess I wanted to talk both about how this sizable Jewish minority is being treated by the quote-unquote mainstream, but I also want to talk about the argument that this is a matter of Jewish interest. Do you guys think that there are like, young people in Park Slope who are persuadable, if they are undecided, to vote for Cuomo because of their Jewish interest? Does that seem like an inspiring message?

PB 22:30

I think this to me, Arielle, the question underscores why I see this political dynamic as the glass half full, precisely because of the point you made. In the past, the argument from Israel’s supporters in the American Jewish community was: We are the American Jewish community. There is no significant opposition, and what there was so marginal you could ignore it. There really has been a shift. In the Bret Stephens column, too, he actually starts his column by quoting a poll showing that 38% of Jews are going to vote for Mamdani. Cosgrove devotes a significant part of that sermon to basically saying: We have a problem in the Jewish community. And as you say, you wouldn’t need to create a group called the Jewish Majority to try to attack JFREJ and JVP unless they actually had some political weight.

PB 23:15

So what’s interesting now is the way in which people have to cast their rhetoric to try to make sense of this. I think you’re about right: a third, roughly, maybe more of American Jews who are basically outside the Zionist consensus. And what, generally, you see in Cosgrove’s piece, and also in Bret Stephens column, is the claim that: Well, they’re willing to support people who have anti-Israel views for other reasons. They’re supporting Mamdani despite the fact that he has these views. And I think that’s what Cosgrove is getting at: Well, we need to go tell these people that we understand they’re concerned about the rent, and about affordability, and maybe they’re a little upset about mass sexual harassment; they’re just going to have to put that aside, and they have to remind themselves that they’re Jews, and being Jews means that they can’t support someone who thinks Israel is a genocide. But as you’re saying, Arielle, that empirically is incorrect. The percentage of American Jews who think Israel is committing genocide is roughly the same as the percentage of Jewish New Yorkers who are probably going to vote for Mamdani—somewhere in the ballpark of 40%. Which suggests, actually, that it’s not despite Mamdani’s views on Israel but that there’s basically a congruence here. There is a large minority of American Jews, including in New York, particularly among young people, who like Mamdani’s views on the range of issues, including his views on Israel.

AA 24:32

I just want to read what he says, because I just want to get it on the record here. Cosgrove’s argument for what you’re supposed to tell young Jews, he says: You’re going to start that conversation by talking about love, but then you’re going to tell them that there are limits to love.

Rabbi Cosgrove 24:47

To be a Jew, to be anything for that matter, means to prioritize one love over another. Concerned as we are with the well-being of humanity, we simply cannot, nor should be expected to, care for every human the same way.

AA 25:03

So basically saying: The way you’re going to sell this to these young Jews who are hopped up on the idea of a better city, where they’re in real touch and solidarity with other communities in the city; this is a time for total self-concern. And that just seems like such a depressing argument to sell—that isolation and self-concern is the way of Jewish life. He even uses Hillel to say that.

Rabbi Cosgrove 25:31

One cannot love another as yourself, argued Hillel and Jews throughout the ages. The best we can do is to love another because he or she is like us, Kamocha, created alike in God’s image. There are limits to love. There is a place for self-concern, and as Jews, Ahavat Israel—love of Israel—does take precedence over other loves.

SZ 26:00

I have to just say, I just don’t know how these rabbis don’t think that they are fueling antisemitism by speaking in this way.

AA 26:06

I’m terrified listening to this speech and thinking about how other people are going to hear this.

SZ 26:11

I’m sure that maybe all of you have seen this tweet—there’s a tweet that has gone kind of viral this week from, I think, a former state assembly candidate or something like that, who basically said: Every time I hear Zohran’s crowd chant, “Tax the rich,” I hear, “Tax the Jews.” I mean, this is your brain on Zionism. I’m sorry. Like, this is what is happening in this bubble where the level of paranoia is so extreme that it’s actually taking you out of reality. Just to go back to the rally for a second, people were chanting “tax the rich” at Kathy Hochul, our governor, who has a very important role in actually implementing different tax policies. The idea that all of this is like some nefarious conspiracy to go after the Jews is just deranged. And the idea that these rabbis are saying: None of this matters except our narrow interests. We can have all these billionaires pouring millions and millions of dollars into the race. Mike Bloomberg has poured over $8 million into the race. I mean, these numbers are astounding. And the idea that this one group of people is singling themselves out, and is singling their pet issue out, and expecting special treatment for that over all else—I don’t know how all these people don’t think that this causes antisemitism.

AK 27:31

But also, I think we would all agree we have a very different conception of what the Jewish self-interest is. If you want to talk about Jewish self-interest, I don’t think it’s in the Jewish self-interest to support Israel’s destruction of Gaza. Not only does it mean starvation of Palestinians, families killed, children killed, all of the horrors and atrocities that Israel committed in Gaza—it’s not good for Jews around the world because it fuels antisemitism.

SZ 27:55

Right. So essentially, what all these rabbis are saying is like: “Tax the rich” and “stop the genocide” is against Jews. They’re lumping us in with the two worst things that you would want Jews to be associated with.

PB 28:06

I also just think that the one of the things that I think people who are in this pro-Israel world—which again, tends to be older, tends to be more politically conservative, tends to be wealthier—really don’t understand, is precisely the degree to which many of the Jews who support people like Zohran Mamdani are actually doing it not despite their Jewish commitments but as an expression of their Jewish commitments, and actually are really interested in trying to build vibrant Jewish life. This is, in some ways, the hardest thing, I think, for those folks to admit because it actually requires imagining that the Jewish future is actually going to be, in part, built by people who are trying to build an American Judaism that’s disconnected from the moral corruption of this unconditional support for the state of Israel. That’s the most challenging thing, and that’s the thing that you find that basically, these folks are completely unwilling to acknowledge. It’s always framed as: Their left politics on Mamdani, their left politics on Israel suggest some lack of connection to being Jewish when, in my personal experience, it’s usually quite the opposite.

AA 29:13

Yeah. Peter, I did want to ask you about the conception of peoplehood that’s being put on the table here because I know that you’ve wrestled with this personally, especially as an observant Jew. I mean, there’s Torah being marshaled here in several different directions. To say that Zionism is a part of Judaism—that this has always been a yearning—to say that Jewish self-interest for Jews, first and foremost, is an ethical requirement of being Jewish?

PB 29:42

The thing that struck me, because I listened to Rabbi Cosgrove’s sermon to d’var Torah kind of recently, after reading all of the divrei Torah that the Halachic Left had put out for Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot, and then also reading the d’var Torah they’d recently just put out for Parshat Noach as we’ve started the cycle of Torah reading. I mean, put aside politics. If one wants to just evaluate these texts in terms of their engagement with Jewish text, there’s no comparison. The level of depth, of engagement with Jewish rabbinic literature that you’re seeing in places like the Halachic Left, is on a completely different plane than you’re seeing in what Rabbi Cosgrove is offering or Rabbi Hirsch is offering in their statements about Israel. I think that it’s the people who are actually trying to rethink Judaism outside of the framework of this kind of ethnonationalist framework who are actually doing a lot more interesting engagement, more serious engagement with Jewish texts. Because in some ways, I think the relationship to Judaism itself is really stultified and deadened by trying to put it in this box, in which you have to make Jewish tradition accord with this political project created in 1948. It’s also worth noting that one of the other groups where Zohran Mamdani seems to be having some degree of success, ironically, is—I can see Alex smiling—is among the Satmar Hasidim, who, actually, also are not Zionists but also have a relationship to Judaism which is separate from the connection to the state of Israel. Obviously, not a left politics, but there are a lot of those folks in New York. There are a lot of Satmar Hasids in New York. It’s just a reminder that these people who want to claim that they speak for a Jewish community are actually missing so much of the actual diversity of Jewish life in New York, and a lot of that diversity that they’re missing is actually very Jewishly creative and very Jewishly committed.

AA 31:42

One thing that it really brings home in Cosgrove’s speech is that the faith in Israel is totally divorced—and we’ve always known this—but totally divorced from material conditions. It’s just an article of faith. He talks about how it’s difficult with Netanyahu and with this government, but the fact of the matter is, this is just who we are. We just support Israel no matter what, and that is core to our existence. It’s really amazing to see somebody, at this point, saying that, just basically telling you: This has nothing to do with the realities on the ground, with political realities, with material realities; this is an article of faith. I think that Jewish people, historically in the United States, have seen the evangelical right do these things around abortion, homosexuality, and LGBTQ+ rights, and basically say: No, thank you. Your article of faith is not part of the political sphere, and it’s not enforceable on the rest of us. And here they do the exact same thing, and unabashedly. I think that that’s pretty strange.

SZ 32:53

Yeah. I’m glad that you asked me to actually watch the sermon, because I watched it and I was like: This is the most uninspiring person I’ve ever had to watch on a pulpit. I am having a hard time imagining that that is really going to be that galvanizing for people beyond the choir that already agrees with him. Noa Yachot wrote a report in the Guardian about the Jewish vote for Mamdani that I thought was really insightful and captured a lot of the kind of interesting dynamics that we’re actually seeing happening in the community. You’re seeing living room gatherings, private meetings across the community. There are so many people who are actually deeply engaging, and listening, and wrestling. And there was one quote in the article that I’ve been thinking about a lot, which was from Phylisa Wisdom from the New York Jewish Agenda, who said something to the effect of: A lot of liberal Jews are having an identity crisis right now. Many of them didn’t expect that they would find themselves voting for a mayoral candidate who wants to arrest Netanyahu if he comes to New York City, but many of them also didn’t imagine that they would ever think Netanyahu should be arrested. And I think back to your question of like: Does this movable middle in the Jewish community exist? I think Phylisa was speaking to that demographic that really does exist, and I think it’s forcing a question for a lot of Jews who are waking up to the horrors on the ground in Gaza and are also people who care about this city as a place that should be affordable, and welcoming, and diverse, and they’re not going to let their Zionism or their discomfort around Israel trump all of that.

SZ 34:25

I can say, from my experience canvassing a little bit with Jews for Racial and Economic Justice and the Jews for Zohran, that you meet people, and you can tell these are not radical leftists. I’ve met people who just seem like kind of normal, liberal Jews who are concerned about many other issues and are interested in learning about the guy. I do think that that demographic exists, and I think all of the fear-mongering that we’re seeing from these out-of-touch corners of the establishment Jewish community really just aren’t capturing these people. And by the way, the Washington Post also reported this month that 60% of American Jews believe that Israel is committing war crimes. So if you’re a person who believes that Israel has committed war crimes and you have a mayoral candidate who also believes that, I think it’s forcing people to reevaluate maybe where they might have drawn the lines.

PB 35:12

Shaul Magid wrote something on his Substack that I thought was very useful, where he kind of asked the question: Is the panic about Zohran Mamdani really about Zohran Mamdani, or is it a stand-in for other things? I do think that it reminds me a little bit about the panic that you see about the declining numbers of Jewish students at Ivy League schools. I think part of what you’re seeing with Mamdani’s race is simply the kind of natural succession that takes place in a city like New York, in which newer immigrant groups throw up politicians who represent their identities and shine a light on the changing face of the city. Zohran Mamdani is putting a spotlight on the fact that there are a lot of Muslims in New York, and there are a lot of South Asians in New York, York, and those people have generally not been represented in city politics. As different groups emerge and have some degree of political prominence, their particular view on the world also—not that they’re monolithic, but different things are highlighted. Zohran Mamdani is proudly Muslim, which I think is really one of the really inspiring things about him—that he doesn’t have to put that in the closet, that he actually can be proud. He’s also someone who has a deep connection to the Global South, like a lot of New Yorkers do, which I think really informs his view on Israel. I don’t think that his views on Israel are disconnected from the fact that he lived in South Africa, that his family is from Uganda. And this makes, I think, a certain group of Jews—not all Jews by any means—but it makes a certain group of Jews feel like, as Franklin Foer wrote, the Jewish golden age is ending. Like, we were number one, we were in the spotlight, people catered to us, and now no one cares about us anymore. We’re fading away. But the way in which they articulate that is that: This is antisemitic anti-Zionism. Whereas, I think there’s actually a set of deeper anxieties going on here, which gets described in a certain way, but there’s more to it than simply that. Mamdani is the representation of a new kind of America, or a new kind of New York, in which people feel less centered.

SZ 37:08

I’m really glad you brought that up, Peter, and I think it’s also just important to say these are racist anxieties, and a lot of what is being marshaled into that conversation are deeply racist and Islamophobic smears against Zohran. I mean, we’re having this conversation in a week in which both Andrew Cuomo and Eric Adams have just said absolutely horrific Islamophobic things, just scraping the bottom of the barrel of racist anxieties, throwing them at Zohran. He gave this unbelievably moving speech about: What does it mean to be a person who has experienced Islamophobia and come from a community that—I believe the word that he used was—that we expect indignity. That that’s the normal experience. And then again, we’re seeing all the way up to J.D. Vance, who mocked him by being like: Oh, God, yeah, your aunt was afraid to ride the subway. It’s like, meanwhile, these are the same people who are like: My Jewish student is nervous at an Ivy League to say that they support a genocidal state. It’s just racism and double standards.

AA 38:12

Yes. I want to just distill it down to its core: It’s a fear of mortality. The fact of the matter is, this is a generational fight, and this is a hulking institutional landscape filled with a lot of people who recognize that they have failed to impart the thing that they wanted to impart to the next generation. The next generation of Jews is not in their image, and they know that it dies with them. I see this all the time, even in the Currents world, like the way that “secular” has this particular tinge for older Jewish Currents readers, and how much passion and anger comes out when it seems like the younger generation is more interested in learning Torah or whatever. It’s really just a fear of mortality and the recognition that this is not being passed on in the way that they intended.

PB 39:04

Hearing you say that, Arielle, reminds me that in a strange way, I almost feel like the perpetual Jewish mega anxiety about their kids not being Jewish—or intermarrying, which is something which I felt like was so dominant for all of my life—seems like it’s almost been eclipsed by the fear of their kids not being Zionists. Like, that’s what’s taken center stage instead, as opposed to 20 years ago when I think it was much more like” Oh no, they’re gonna intermarry, they’re not gonna be Jews.

AA 39:28

Yeah, no. I think that’s absolutely right, and I think what’s so interesting about it is that they’ve actually decided—they’ve made a decision not to actually take this next generation as it is, and still reach out to them, and invite them into their synagogues, and include them in Jewish life. They’ve basically made a decision to cut them off from Jewish life.

PB 39:49

Right. Because the flip side of saying that Zionism and Judaism are inseparable is that if you’re not a Zionist, you’re not actually a Jew. I mean, they don’t say it that bluntly, but that’s the kind of underlying point of all of it. So Jewish solidarity, even though you talk constantly about Jewish solidarity, doesn’t actually extend to those folks.

AA 40:06

Yeah, you see that on the Jewish Majority website. It’s actually quite egregious the amount of disinformation there, and honestly, someone should ask the liberal rabbis on that list how they feel about putting misinformation on their website, some of which comes from Trump-aligned lawfare groups, some of which comes from information that is being used to finger JVP as domestic terrorists. Some of the things that they say against JVP and JFREJ is that they’re a threat to law and order; that they block roads, that they basically engage in civil disobedience. And that’s pretty dangerous, to have 1,100 rabbis signing on to say that civil disobedience means that you’re a threat to civil safety, and to basically say that that’s violence, especially when you have a Trump administration that’s saying that domestic terrorism and violence is the basis for whatever they’re about to do. I mean, this reminds me of the 1950s. Jewish Currents comes out of this McCarthyist moment where the mainstream Jewish community participated in anti-communist purges and criminalization, and that caught up a lot of Jews. There were tons of Jews who were involved in that. I feel like we’re about to see that again. We know we’re about to see it. That administration is announcing their attacks on JVP, and you have this institutional landscape that’s going to do nothing about it, saying that they care so much about the safety of Jews. And Jews will disproportionately be part of this. Not more than other groups. Obviously, these attacks are anti-immigrant first and foremost, and certainly anti-Black and Anti-Latin. But Jews are activists, and they’re going to be part of these organizations. I think what you see is this proactive severing, and they are not going to stand up for them or protect them. In fact, many of them seem willing to join Trump’s fight, even if they find Trump abhorrent.

AK 42:02

When I asked one rabbi who signed a letter about the attack on Jewish Voice for Peace, he said: They claim to be a Jewish organization that speaks for Jews, but almost everything they say is very anti-Israel. He did go on to say that: I didn’t go through everything on the website before signing on. So, that’s the kind of answer that we’re going to get from these liberal rabbis, which isn’t the most satisfying.

AA 42:23

Well, and not the most politically sophisticated either.

SZ 42:27

Yeah. I mean, this is just what really gets me about this idea that this battle around Zionism in the Jewish community can be separated from the broader political context that we’re in. I guess there must be some rabbis who signed onto this and are not paying attention to the fact that everything that they are participating in is helping fuel this broader attempt by the right and by the administration to criminalize huge swaths of the left and to fuel tons of misinformation in our politics. As if the idea that the information that these people are getting is not coming from overtly right-wing sources that have other agendas—it’s hard for me to imagine that that is a delusion that still exists in certain segments of liberal American Jewry. But I guess anybody who’s listening to this, who has a rabbi who signed onto this, should be informing them about what they’re actually participating in.

AK 43:17

Just to quote one of the rabbis that I interviewed, he said: People have written back to me and said that I’m helping Trump. And his answer was that: I resent that. It couldn’t be further from the truth. I don’t support Trump, and I don’t support Mamdani.

PB 43:32

Politics is about priorities. So, you can say, “I don’t support Trump,” but I mean, is there anything like the mobilization against Donald Trump in the American Jewish mainstream that there is against Zohran Mamdani? So you may not think of yourself as a Trump supporter, but it’s certainly clear that you think Zohran Mamdani is more of a danger to Jewish New Yorkers than Donald Trump is, and more of a threat to the values you hold dear. So, that itself is a very substantial statement at a time when—I don’t need to remind listeners that Donald Trump is actively dismantling what remains left of American liberal democracy, saying that he’s going to remain president after 2028. You know, all of these things. You would think that if one had to choose a crisis about which you were going to mobilize mainstream Jewish resources, which are not insubstantial, that would be the thing that you would focus on. But Mamdani is considered a greater threat.

AA 44:23

I’m going to stop us here. Thank you guys for a really great conversation. I think it’s pretty astounding, the array of power that we see being thrown at this race from the mainstream Jewish community in the last week of the campaign. I do think it’s pretty shameful, but I am choosing to look at it, Peter, from your point of view, as being half full—that actually, a lot of what’s happening is a result of really creating a contested Jewish politic, at least in the United States at this point. I think that is something to be hopeful about. So thank you all for joining me. This has been another episode of On the Nose. If you like it, share it, certainly share it with some undecided voters in this election, if you happen to know any, and subscribe to Jewish Currents, JewishCurrents.org. See you next time.