Arielle Angel 00:09

Hello and welcome back to On the Nose, the Jewish Currents podcast. I’m Arielle Angel, editor in chief of Jewish Currents. New York City Comptroller Brad Lander got 11% of the vote in the Democratic mayoral primary, but his cross-endorsement of Zohran Mamdani helped propel Mamdani to victory. Lander and Mamdani inspired many with their partnership, especially in a race marred by Islamophobia and false accusations of antisemitism (even against Lander himself, a longtime fixture of the city’s progressive Jewish scene). The cooperation between a Muslim and Jewish candidate focused on beating Andrew Cuomo and aiming for a more affordable New York was, for many New Yorkers, a breath of fresh air. On this episode of On the Nose, editor-at-large Peter Beinart talks to Lander about the campaign trail, what inspired his decision to cross-endorse Mamdani, his policy differences with the Democratic mayoral nominee, and what he’d like to see from the New York Democratic establishment moving forward. Without further ado, here’s On the Nose.

Peter Beinart 1:21

Thank you all for joining us. I don’t think Brad Lander needs really any introduction. He’s the city comptroller of New York. He’s someone I’ve had the opportunity to get to know over the past few years. There are not many politicians I know as well as Brad, and one of the things that made me happy was to see the way that his public image—people began to see publicly, who didn’t know him, what I’ve experienced with him over the years that I’ve known him. He’s just an extraordinarily decent human being, and it just comes through every time you interact with him. There’s no pretension, there’s no arrogance. There’s just a genuine sincerity, and kindness, and openness, and willingness to speak plainly, and so I’ve been really, really happy to see the way in which he’s been celebrated over the last couple of weeks. And I’m really grateful to you, Brad, for doing this.

Brad Lander 2:04

Thank you, Peter. I’m enthusiastic about it. Happy July 4th. Here’s to throwing off kings and tyrants and doing what we can for that simple but so contradictory and elusive idea: that everyone’s created equal.

PB 2:16

I thought I would just start with the race a bit. Obviously, it turns out that the two biggest figures in the race ended up being Andrew Cuomo and Zohran Mamdani. I’m just curious, Brad, because you have an insight into these kinds of things in a way that the rest of us don’t: I would just love to know what your experience has been with Andrew Cuomo over the years. What’s the guy like, and what perspective did you have on him as someone who’s actually been involved in New York politics for quite a number of years?

BL 2:44

So the truth is, I had had very little interaction with him before—and had very little interaction with him in the mayor’s race. The one conversation we had had prior to it is years ago, I think in 2016. I had passed a bill in the New York City Council to ban plastic bags, single-use plastic bags, and then the state legislature, led by Orthodox state senator Simcha Felder and some other folks, nullified the city’s bill. Even though Andrew Cuomo knew it was a disaster from an environmental point of view, he signed their bill, killing mine, and called me to try to be charming and say: Oh, this is a good environmental bill, but now is not the time, blah, blah, blah. So I did see his charming side. Now, I have many friends who experienced his bullying, really sociopathic side. I’m not an analyst, but I don’t use that lightly either. Anybody who worked with him in politics heard all these stories about him bullying to get whatever he wanted, very effectively. In the mayor’s race, he ran a Rose Garden race and never came to any of the forums that we did. We all got to know each other pretty well by just appearing at dozens and dozens of forums and small-scale debates, and he came to absolutely none of them. The only two times I even shook his hand in the race were on the debate stage for the two debates. In that first debate, he went ahead and attacked my wife in a way that was really, honestly, sourced on Twitter—just utterly false. But when I came off the stage, my son was like: You better hit harder in the second debate. So I went into that second debate aiming to hit a good deal harder. And actually, after the debate, he gave Zohran a smiley back-slappy hug, and he and I just stared coldly at each other.

PB 4:33

What about Zohran Mamdani? When did you first meet him? What was your experience with him, and then how did it evolve over the course of the mayoral race?

BL 4:43

Yeah, first time I ever really saw him or got to know him at all was when he was helping lead the effort to help a set of taxi medallion holders who were facing just crushing medallion debt. You know, taxi medallion debt had grown dramatically, several drivers had committed suicide, there was a real need for relief. There was a hunger strike that he was a part of, and I stopped by that picket line a number of times. So that was when I really first talked to him in any political context. We were not close before the mayor’s race. We got to know each other pretty well through the many green rooms, and panels, and forums. It gets to be the point where you could give the other people’s answers because you’ve heard them 50 times. And a warmth developed over that context. Then the Working Families Party put four of us—Zohran, me, Zellnor Myrie, and Adrienne Adams—on their Working Families Party slate as part of a real, clear effort. When that first started, we thought Eric Adams would be the opponent, but then it pretty quickly became clear it would be Andrew Cuomo. So there was an effort together by the four of us to commit to rank each other, to commit not to focus our fire on each other during the race, but really try to keep focused on Cuomo. But obviously, then it became a much tighter relationship.

PB 6:07

What struck you about him when you started to spend time with him?

BL 6:10

I mean, obviously, he’s a very charming and charismatic guy. Hard not to like when you’re up close with him, and you can see that in a lot of relationships. I saw him go to UJA, where he knew he would face a lot of criticism for what he said, and still tried to do it with just a very personal warmth. That’s true up close, and it’s true when you see him through the media as well. I remember watching that video when he went, shortly after the Trump election, to Fordham Road and Woodside Boulevard and thinking: Wow, all right, he’s doing something significant that people are paying attention to. So an admiration developed, and also a certain: Okay, something’s going on here. By normal standards of a mayor’s race, I felt like I was doing pretty well: We raised a lot of money. We hit the limit. We had a lot of volunteers, a lot of great policies, a lot of good energy. But then watching the level of energy developing in that campaign, with tens of thousands of volunteers and the fastest ever to get to the fundraising cap—I’d be lying if I didn’t confess a certain, you know, you’re watching, you’re thinking: I’d love for that to be me surging like that.

PB 7:17

To go back to the Working Families, so there’s an understanding that the four of you are not going to attack one another. This is before the cross-endorsements, but obviously, you and Zohran Mamadani are not in exactly the same place when it comes to Israel and Palestine, and I would imagine there were people who didn’t want you to be on a slate with him, to not criticize him, certainly not to cross-endorse him. I’m curious if you can talk a little bit about your thinking on that and how it evolved.

BL 7:43

One thing I have been saying all throughout the campaign is: If four years ago Maya Wiley and Kathryn García had cross-endorsed each other a couple of weeks out from the race, probably one of them would have won, and we would have been spared this timeline with Eric Adams humiliating our city and selling us out to Donald Trump. And I said to people early on: Help make sure I don’t do that. I don’t want to leave us with Eric Adams or Andrew Cuomo as mayor, and I asked some people to hold me accountable to that. It’s not easy as things get down the stretch, but that was always clear to me. Like, it was clear to me that a more strategic approach to ranked choice would be required, and a more strategic approach will require candidates to be willing to do that whether they’re leading or not. That always seemed clear to me, and that doesn’t make it easy, but I knew it would be the right thing to do given the level of name recognition, and endorsements, and sense of dark inevitability that Andrew Cuomo brought to the race.

BL 8:44

On Zohran in particular—so I’m, let’s call it a left liberal, a sort of Working Families Party progressive. Obviously, a very strong critic of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians but someone who believes in the vision of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. I knew there would be a lot of criticism of Zohran from mainstream Democrats. I guess I’ll say I have the blessing of being in communities that have worked through this for a long time. I’m just very comfortable in my Jewish skin. Andrew Cuomo went into the West Side Institutional Synagogue earlier in the race, as part of his campaign of weaponizing antisemitism, and called me and Zohran and Adrienne Adams all antisemites. My response was to curse at him in Yiddish. We actually debated which Yiddish curse to use. Some people, of course, were for just using gay kaken ofn yahm, which is your more traditional “go shit in the ocean.” But I really liked a beyzer gzar zol er af dir kumen, because that was like putting an evil decree on him that would cause him to lose the race. And I really believe that’s what worked, and I do think we hexed him, and that’s why he lost.

BL 09:54

But I also said: Let’s go into West Side Institutional Synagogue and make my remarks there. These are issues that I feel deeply Jewish about. Andrew Cuomo can attack me, but he can’t make me a bad Jew. And I have the blessing of being in community with people like you—of praying in, really, two synagogues in Brooklyn: Kolot Chayeinu, where I was married and my kids were named and became B’nai Mitzvah, which is one of the relatively few places where JVP Jews and J Street Jews pray together with only a minimum of side eye, and also at Congregation Beth Elohim. I just have been part of these conversations a long time, and I knew people would have criticisms, but I didn’t feel uncomfortable leaning in and being myself, being critical of things of other candidates when I felt absolutely necessary, but mostly saying: I broadly believe these are people of decency and integrity, who have a vision of a more inclusive and equal and well-run city and would all be way better than Andrew Cuomo. And so, I was comfortable on the slate. I certainly gave it a lot more thought before we did the cross-endorsement, but by then, it was pretty clear it was either going to be him or Andrew Cuomo, and the lines were pretty clearly drawn for me.

PB 11:10

Were there people who had influence or who were close to you, or people who you felt like you had to contend with, who said something along the lines of: Listen, Brad, this distinction between you as a liberal Zionist who supports the Jewish and democratic state and Zohran Mamdani as someone who doesn’t support a Jewish state—I think is fairly described as an anti-Zionist who believes in a binational state, a secular state, something like this—this, as you know as well as anyone, in Jewish discourse is not a small distinction, right? This is the line that separates kosher from treif in most major Jewish institutions. I’m curious, did you have people come to you and say: If you’re gonna cross-endorse across this distinction, that’s really a problem for us?

BL 11:50

Well, I knew that would happen, yes. I mean, even in my inner circle, there were people who were very enthusiastic; people who thought it was the right thing to do but had some hesitation; and a couple of people in my consultant landscape who said: This will be too far for us. I really got that out on the street once I did it. Some people were so moved, like: Thank you. This is a form of politics that seems collaborative for the future of our city and not selfish and a form of solidarity between Muslims and Jews. And I had some people say: Okay, I appreciate that you did that. I was hesitating, but I guess I’m going to put him fifth. You know, he’s not my favorite, but I agree he’s better than Cuomo. And I absolutely had some people say: Brad, I was going to rank you first, and now I’m not going to rank you at all because of it. And I knew I would get all those responses. I do think, whatever, praying in a synagogue in which that’s not the line between kosher and treif—in which there are lines, right? Like, you’re expected to treat everyone as though they’re created b’tzselem elohim, and that means Palestinians in Gaza, and that means Israeli Jews, and everybody here. I do feel like I feel the blessing of the community reflected in those synagogues and in institutions like Jews for Racial and Economic Justice that endorsed us both, and in New York Jewish Agenda, which is more to the liberal Zionist side. But it is a blessing of being a Jewish New Yorker to be in these debates and conversations. They’re not easy ones, but if you’re trying to bring people together, it’s good to have been situated in a community like this that gives you a little bit of courage. I guess what I’d say is there’s tokhahah—you know, that loving rebuke from people who love you, and have your back, and want you to do the right thing when it counts.

PB 13:34

What would you say were the most significant differences you had with Zohran on city issues? What would you say was the key distinction there, and how much pause did that give you?

BL 13:45

I mean, look—in the big picture way, we were all campaigning on pretty similar issues. Everyone was focused on affordability. I mean, affordable housing is the work of my whole adult life, and we all pretty much believe you have to build a lot more housing, as much of it affordable and out of speculative ownership, as you possibly can. Keep rents down for tenants as much as possible; focus on more affordable child care. I would say I was trying, at least in my mind, to build a somewhat broader coalition. I mean, I was elected comptroller four years ago, so maybe I was leaning a little more on safety as well as affordability. So my number one commitment in this race was to end street homelessness for people with serious mental illness, but it’s not like he was against that. His focus was really all on affordability; I was trying to do both affordability and safety.

BL 14:39

I’m not a DSA member. My policies are a little more mixed market. I joked—my big place to find more affordable housing is that I was surprised to learn that the city owns 12 golf courses. I found four of them on which we could build 50,000 affordable homes. That was my policy, and he never came on board with it, and I like to joke that it seems like he was seeking the golfer vote. But I don’t know that he really disagrees with the building affordable homes on the golf courses. I guess the one thing I set out publicly on the campaign trail, if I ever was pushed hard to give like a policy distinction, is I don’t know that the city’s going to be so good at running grocery stores. I understand the desire to bring the cost of food down. I like that we run libraries, and fire departments, and schools, and park,s and public hospitals. I don’t know, I’d probably leave the grocery stores to the grocery store operators and some great co-ops, like the Park Slope Food Co-Op, and try to do with subsidies, things that get affordable and nutritious food. But it’s a pretty subtle distinction.

PB 15:42

One of the critiques that I’ve seen—and I don’t know this stuff nearly as well as you do—is that a lot of the stuff he wants to do requires spending money that he doesn’t have the capacity to raise and that he’s not likely to get from New York State. What do you think of that?

BL 15:55

I mean, it’s a real challenge. And look, it’s even bigger now. This bill, this hideous bill that’s passing in Washington, is going to blow a hole in the city’s budget. It’s going to make it harder for us just to fund New York Health and Hospitals, and keep our public schools well funded, and keep our affordable housing programs funded. So yes, the challenge of delivering a very large childcare expansion—making the buses fast is a great idea, and making them free costs about $700 or $800 million a year. And whether he will be able to persuade the legislature to significantly increase the corporate tax rate and the taxes on millionaires remains to be seen. That said, people were excited by it, and a lot of people voted for it, and he’s going to work hard to bring that pressure to bear on Albany. Governor Kathy Hochul is going to be facing election next year, and it seems to me a big child care expansion would be in her electoral interest as well. I think probably Zohran will build a broad campaign, get a lot of the people that were involved in his campaign to let their legislators know—and let the governor know—they want those things, and hopefully there’ll be a place where Governor Hochul and the legislature come around and say: Okay, here’s some revenue increase—I doubt it’ll be as big as the one that Zohran has proposed—in order to fund a big child care expansion. And that would be great.

PB 17:19

Have you thought at all about whether you might want to be involved in his administration, assuming he wins?

BL 17:23

I mean, obviously, it’s early days. He’s got a big mandate for change. It’s an exciting one. I’m certainly open to finding ways to help him, whether that’s in the administration or as an ally to it. I’m inspired by the campaign he ran. The cross-endorsement really did open up a quite lovely sense of solidarity, and I’m eager to help make sure it goes well. So we’ll see where things go, but I’m certainly open to it.

PB 17:49

It was really remarkable—I think for a lot of people—seeing the two of you together. I’m curious if there was one particular moment that you had during that period, after you crossed endorsed and you guys were doing this kind of buddy roadshow, if there’s one particular experience you had (or two) that really made an impact on you.

BL 18:07

When I decided to do it, I approached it mostly as ranked choice mathematics. I don’t want Andrew Cuomo to be mayor. We have to add up our votes, and therefore, practically, let’s do it in order to make sure Andrew Cuomo doesn’t win the race. Once we did it—and I could feel it even in just filming the video we did in front of the food cart—people instantly, really reacted to it in quite a lovely way, as like—this is such a dark, and sour, and selfish time between Trump, and Adams, and Cuomo, and people just felt like: Wow, politics could be more like a team sport? You could do it for the future of our beloved city and not just for yourselves, individually. And there was a lot of that. I mean, I felt it. We walked around Steinway Street and went to some Yemeni coffee shops, and people were so kind to me. We went in Prospect Park, and it’s just all anyone could do to, like, take selfies with the two of us. I did tease him there, because we came in on Citi bikes, and as we ride into Grand Army Plaza, he does this beautiful, elegant rolling dismount. And I just, like, have my bike come to a stop. And I’m like: You even gotta look better than me getting off a bicycle. So there was a certain funny, buddy-comedy nature to it.

BL 19:22

Probably the most stark but interesting moment of this: We cross-endorsed on a Friday. It’s just the following Tuesday that, as part of this effort I’ve been doing to help immigrants get a fair hearing and due process, I get arrested at 26 Federal Plaza. Pretty rough arrest, as everyone could see in the video. And they take me back in a hallway, and then they take off their masks. The first guy is a Pakistani Muslim immigrant who lives in Brighton Beach—the first ICE officer. And the second guy is an Indo Guyanese immigrant who lives in South Ozone Park. And one guy says: Yeah, my wife really wants me to quit my job. I don’t know how I’m gonna pay the mortgage. And then, the Pakistani Muslim guy says: What’s Mamdani like? He’s been to my mosque a couple of times, and I’m thinking of ranking you guys. And I’m just like: I don’t know what to make of this. I mean, there’s a whole broader issue. Like, these guys were not born brownshirts, but Donald Trump and the times that we’re living in are making them brownshirts. The leaders that we elect are of enormous consequence for our collective decency or indecency. Especially now that they’re opening up a concentration camp in Florida and quintupling the volume of resources that are going to ICE—it is a fundamental emergency for our democracy. So, I mean, that story is funny, but I don’t want anyone to think that I think what’s going on there is anything but an utter emergency.

PB 20:55

Have you been disappointed at all by the response by major New York City elected officials? Schumer, Jeffries, Hochul, Gillibrand stopping short of endorsement, and obviously, Gillibrand, in particular, saying some things a lot of people found very objectionable. Does it surprise you? Does it disappoint you? What’s your reaction?

BL 21:14

I mean, look, he is the Democratic nominee for mayor. Democrats should be supporting him in the general election, and I was glad to see that Senator Gillibrand apologized for what she said. It was right of her to apologize—what she said was really awful. This is also just an important moment of unity for New York City. I mean, we have this guy who has inspired all these people, brought folks together, has plenty of Jewish support. I mean, at this point, it’s not just me, it’s Jerry Nadler, and Mark Levine, and Brad Hoylman-Sigal, and Micah Lasher. And here, the President of the United States is threatening our city and our mayoral candidate, threatening to strip his citizenship and deport him, and it’s time to rally around him with some unity. I mean, I’ve been saying, I don’t think the line for Democrats right now should be thought of as between progressives and moderates; it should be thought of as between fighters and folders. Even if you think of yourself as a moderate Democrat in New York City, it is time to endorse him. You can articulate your policy disagreements with him when you do that endorsement; I might point to Micah Lasher—mainstream liberal Democrat, Upper West Side—endorsed him, articulating some of their differences. Fine, say where you disagree, but it’s time to get on board and endorse them and make clear to Trump that we’re not going to give any ground, not going to let him continue to weaponize Jewish fears and anxieties. That, I feel, is where everybody—certainly all mainstream Democrats—should be.

PB 22:45

I can’t resist asking you if the distinction is between fighters and folders—in New York City, have both the Senate Minority Leader and the House Minority Leader, so Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, proved themselves to be more fighters or folders in this moment?

BL 22:58

I mean, this is a moment for everybody to step up. So, I’d like them both to come out and support Zohran. I’d like Andrew Cuomo to come out and support Zohran. I said on the debate stage to him: You’ve never taken responsibility for one thing you’ve done in your life, but what a good time this would be to start, given what Donald Trump is doing. It’s a great time to sign up and come on the side of fighters rather than folders, and that’s open to everyone.

PB 23:25

So, obviously, there’s been a ton of attention around this “Globalize the Intifada” question. Do you think that’s a genuine subject that matters, or is it just an excuse to basically try to smear the guy? Do you have a substantive critique on the way he initially answered that question, or do you think that basically, people are just looking for any opportunity to smear the guy as an antisemite, and if it wasn’t this, it would have been something else?

BL 23:48

First, let me take a step back and just talk a little more about the way that claims of antisemitism and Jewish fears were weaponized in this race from the beginning, even before Andrew Cuomo got in it. I mean, Eric Adams has been treating Jews as political pawns, for his own political interests, for a very long time, and now he’s running on the Stop Antisemitism line. That play is old, and obviously, Donald Trump calling Chuck Schumer a Palestinian and a racist slur that manages to be both Islamophobic and antisemitic at the same time, and then Andrew Cuomo going into that synagogue and trying to ride the horse of: I’ll fight antisemitism to the mayor’s race—that was set up long before all of this, and it’s important for us to call it out. I did all I could to call it out, and I hope others will see it as well.

BL 24:40

I understand the fears. I mean, I feel them too. I’m in Jewish communal events all the time. I got two Jewish kids in this city, and rising antisemitism is frightening. From Tree of Life through to what happened in DC and to Colorado, I feel it, and that is real. But you can’t fall for having that turned into just crass political campaigning, which is what folks were doing. I believe there’s also a responsibility, if you really believe that it’s essential to treat everyone like they’re created b’tzelem elohim, to step back a little bit and see what’s going on, because I feel the anxiety that Jews feel, and also, now we’re past 60,000 dead Palestinians in Gaza. So I don’t know. I don’t like that phrase. I know some people mean, “Bring the Palestinian effort for human rights all around the world.” I hear, “Open season on Jews.” I wish people wouldn’t say it. At the same time, it’s a lot of media attention for three words he doesn’t say, and I gotta sit with the fact that here I am, also trying to be mayor, trying to lead the city, and there’s a thing going on that Amnesty International and Omer Bartov and many others call a genocide. I don’t say that. I say the occupation is apartheid, and those are war crimes, and this is ethnic cleansing. But I didn’t get asked once during the campaign: Amnesty International says it’s genocide—how about you?

BL 26:15

And look: He’s going to be the mayor, and it is on him to bring people together in a messy, complicated city. He has a responsibility to communicate effectively to Jewish New Yorkers that he will keep us safe, including those of us who, like me, call ourselves Zionists and believe in that vision of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. But I hope what it’ll be is a moment to push us all a little harder—and for me to reflect a little on whether I should be calling it a genocide. To me, it’s like what I did when I went into West Side Institutional Synagogue, was just frame the thing with the Pirkei Avot quote: [ אִם אֵין אֲנִי לִי, מִי לִי. וּכְשֶׁאֲנִי לְעַצְמִי, מָה אֲנִי.] If I’m not for myself, who will be for me? Like, we are not just excused; we’re called to stand up for ourselves and our people. And, of course, I feel like the same is true for Muslims and Palestinians who, of course, should speak up for themselves and their people. And if I’m for myself only, what am I? We are expected to listen harder and recognize that every kid in Gaza is worth just as much as Marek and Rosa are to me. And so, as much as—again, I feel like it’s a lot of media attention on three words he doesn’t say—if we could turn it into an opportunity to push ourselves forward to show that we’re the opposite of whatever Donald Trump wants to make this country, and that something like inclusive multiracial democracy is possible here, I think it will be great for our safety, will be great for our economy, will be great for our culture. It could be pretty remarkable.

PB 27:51

You mentioned this notion of b’tzelem elohim—all human beings are created equal in the image of God. I’m a little closer, as you know, to Mamdani’s position on the idea of an equal binational state. To me, it is, as I think about it, the extension of that principle: Human beings are created equal in the image of God. They should be equal in the eyes of the law, and states should not have any particular obligation or privilege for members of a religious, or ethnic, or racial group. So, tell me why the notion of a Jewish and democratic state is still one that’s important to you?

BL 28:22

I mean, look: Nation-states are problematic up and down the line. I mean, ours—the fact of what we’re doing to asylum seekers right now. The answer to me is not, like, abolish America. It’s fight harder to win rights for everyone. To me, trying to make sure that the national identities that we bring are balanced with a more fundamental commitment to equality is hard work. And that’s politics. I mean, I guess maybe it’s just that I’m a politician and not a religious thinker or a philosopher. You have to work within the polities that you have, and you try to make it produce the best results. To me, as a proud diaspora Jew, who named my son Marek after Marek Edelman, a Bundist leader in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, there’s something powerful, even noble, in that vision they expressed in the Israeli Declaration of Independence. And I think it’s an okay place to fight for Palestinian human rights from.

BL 29:25

I guess, if I could just make a pitch—I’m not going to try to persuade anyone to change their mind, but I think being a little more open to the possibility that folks who think of themselves as liberal Zionists can show up on Palestinian human rights and as allies here—like, I have loved the way in which Zohran’s and my partnership is opening up some space from which to listen and fight harder for broader goals. I feel like we have that between non- and anti-Zionists and anti-occupation liberal Zionists. It’s okay to disagree, but I think if we could find a little opportunity to remember the big picture, it might not be a bad idea. I’ll invite anyone who’s interested to join us in Union Square. Israelis for Peace do this vigil every Sunday at 5:00, and it’s perfectly comfortable in any case; that’s not a Zionist space, or a non-Zionist space, or an anti-Zionist space. It’s like: End the war, bring the hostages home. There’s no military solution. More spaces like that would be helpful.

PB 30:27

For you, in supporting a Jewish and democratic state. What makes the state Jewish?

BL 30:32

Well, look, I’m a diaspora Jew. I love Brooklyn. To me, what New York City is—I mean, New York City is also the largest Asian city outside of Asia, and the best Dominican place outside the Dominican Republic—but it is an amazing Jewish city, and I just feel so blessed by it. So, look, don’t get me wrong—I’m more deeply a diasporic Jew than I am anything else, and I feel like the remarkable story of our people for two millennia, wandering around the world, keeping a memory of this place that we were connected to, and then finding our way back there, and building, rebuilding, pieces of religious, and cultural, and ethnic, and practice, drawn from all around the world—it speaks to me powerfully, meaningfully. And I know it does to you as well, and that those things can be cultural and religious and don’t have to be built into the nation-state. But given that we organize the planet this way with nation-states, the fact that there could be a place that has a Jewish majority, and where, therefore—this national identity is a thing a lot of people feel. I love the way that Dominican New Yorkers are just proud of the Dominican Republic, and they like going to the Dominican Republic, and they feel Dominican when they’re there, and they can be in New York. There is something about national identity that I think is alright, I guess that’s what I would say. I don’t know that I think it’s essential or important. I don’t generally use “right to exist” because I don’t know what it means for a state to have a right to exist. But I think that Israeli national identity is now a thing in the world, and the question then is: How can it exist in meaningful relationship to the necessity of Palestinian human rights? And that’s just where I think the conversation should be picked up. We could go so far pushing down that line. My pitch here really is not to persuade anyone but to make a little more room. There were a lot of years, I think, when anti-Zionists felt like: We’ve got no place to be in the Jewish community; there’s no Jewish institutions that will have us. I fear a little that in progressive institutions, the same can happen in relationships to people who continue to believe in a Jewish Israel. I think it’d be helpful—people could keep arguing. Tell me why I’m wrong, push back, tell me I have not shown up enough for Palestinian human rights, but make room.

PB 33:18

Yeah, no, no, I mean, I think this is why I think these conversations are really valuable. I think people have to be in the room together to have these conversations respectfully. I mean, I guess one thing I wonder about when you talk about the state having a Jewish majority and being Jewish and democratic, does it ever worry you, especially in the age of Trump and Trump-like people around the world, that there are people in America, some of whom really like Israel a lot, who say: Yeah, that’s the model. We should be a Christian and democratic state, a white Christian and democratic state. We need to maintain our demographic majority. Because that’s precious to people in the United States, too. Does it worry you that this principle, when it comes to Israel, that actually, if it’s universalized and even brought into the US, actually turns America into the country that you and I are fighting against?

BL 34:06

I mean, it makes me worried a lot. Absolutely. And we are doing it right now. I mean, these poor people from Venezuela, and Senegal, and El Salvador, who are desperate to flee war and poverty and find their ways here, we are treating without due process and sending them now to concentration camps in Florida. So, yes, that is a hideous violation of human rights done in the name of our national identity, and I’m busy putting my body on the line to try to do something about it. Yes, I understand that the same is true in Israel right now. I’ve been to Dheisheh. I’ve visited refugee camps in the West Bank. I’ve been to the West Bank every time I’ve been to Israel. I hate the occupation with a very Jewish passion. And I understand the argument, like, I don’t want a world where every single religious or ethnonational identity has its own nation-state, and that’s where everybody lives. I love Brooklyn, you know? I want to live in an inclusive, multiracial democracy. But I guess I just think, we live in the world we live in. Rights come from nation-states. I wish they came from somewhere else, but here we are. And the question is, how do you invite people, given who they are, and how they feel, and how they understand their identities, to show up for these bigger values? And it’s important to be pushed on them, but I know a lot of Israelis who care about Palestinian human rights—and I know a lot of Palestinians who want a Palestinian state, not a binational state, and who also want Jews to have their rights, whether they would be minority citizens in Palestine or whether they would be across the way in Israel. All of this seems really hard to get to and, thankfully, far from what we got to do to deliver in New York City. But I—yeah, that’s what I think.

PB 36:10

Well, Brad and I have been having these conversations for many years, and I really appreciate them. I think that, while we may not be in exactly the same place on these issues, I think about how much better a public conversation this would be in the United States if we were talking about these questions—as opposed to completely letting the Andrew Cuomos off the hook when they’re basically signing up to defend mass murder and only focusing on policing the language of Zohran Mamdani. And I think, Brad, a lot of people—whether they entirely agree with you on every point or not—really owe you a debt of gratitude for modeling a city in which people treat each other with respect. I’m really, really grateful for you doing this.

BL 36:51

I appreciate it as well. This was a fun way to spend the afternoon of July 4th. And Peter, to you and this whole community: just enormous, enormous gratitude. Thank you.

PB 37:00

Thanks again, Brad.

Arielle Angel 37:09

This has been another episode of On the Nose. Special thanks to our editor, Jesse Brenneman. If you like this episode, please share it or leave us a review, and please subscribe to Jewish Currents, JewishCurrents.org. See you next time.