Transcript

Arielle Angel 00:00

Hello, and welcome back to On the Nose, the Jewish Currents podcast. I’m Arielle Angel, editor in chief of Jewish Currents, and I’ll be your host for today. Today, I have Nadav Weiman, the executive director of Breaking the Silence. Hi, Nadav. Thank you for joining me.

Nadav Weiman 00:25

Hi. Thank you for having me.

AA 00:07

So, Breaking the Silence, for those that don’t know, is founded by soldiers in the Israeli army who started to talk about their service and what they had actually done. I will say that from meeting many members of Breaking the Silence over the years, their testimonies are not welcome at all, to say the least, within Israeli society. They are frequently discredited. There’s a real effort to keep what the soldiers are actually doing—the atrocities that they’re committing and the violations to international law, be it in Gaza or in the West Bank or in Lebanon—out of Israeli life and out of the Israeli consciousness.

NW 01:05

Yeah. I’ve got to say that since the beginning of this war, there is a feeling in the Israeli society—there is more place for soldiers talking about what they did in Gaza, but it is only the heroic acts or the trauma, the soldiers coming back to their families. It’s still not the commands, the operations, all of that.

AA 01:25

I wanted to talk to you because we’ve had this quote, unquote, “ceasefire” in effect for a number of weeks. The UN just approved the Trump security plan for, essentially, an international management of Gaza, and I think now is a good time to look at the operation, the military operation of the last two years, to help us understand both what has been happening on the ground in Gaza and also what it means about where Israeli society is. I wonder if you could give me an overview of what’s been happening, and if we could start with the beginning of the operation, and also, the stories that came out about Sde Teiman because Sde Teiman is in the news right now.

NW 02:18

So, the first testimony came to Breaking the Silence within about 48 hours from October 7th, because, between October 7th and October 27th, when the ground invasion started, the IDF attacked from the air. A lot. A lot, a lot, a lot. We killed thousands of Gazans before the ground invasion. But something happened in parallel to that. The nearest base to Gaza, it’s called Sde Teiman. The IDF took part of it and turned it into a detention center. That detention center basically became a torture center, and one of the first things that we heard from our testifiers is what happened in Sde Teiman. And that was the first thing that we published about Gaza very quickly, a couple of weeks after October 7th. Basically, what we understood is that detainees, they are not allowed to sleep or to sit. If they do so, you tighten the plastic handcuffs, and then you take another plastic handcuff, and you put their hands above their head, and you tie them to a fence, so they have to stand with their hands tied above their head. Or kicking and hitting them really hard and tightening the plastic cuffs. And not a lot of food, not a lot of clothes. And near that, the IDF opened a field hospital. A field hospital for Gazans, because a lot of them were injured, because there was a lot of intense fighting inside Israel, obviously. Our testifiers told us that over there, first and foremost, Gazan detainees were cuffed to beds, couldn’t move for days and sometimes weeks, and nobody’s changing their diapers, so they are in their feces all of the time. And also, that medics were ordered to amputate hands and feet, because when you tie the ziptie very strong, for a long period of time, the gangrene, it’s too much, and you have to amputate the hand. And that’s something that the State of Israel, the citizen state of Israel, just didn’t know was happening. And that’s why it was so important for us to publish it really early on.

AA 04:12

Well, so the reason that I wanted to ask you about that, obviously, is that it’s in the news. There’s a tape released by the military’s ex-top lawyer of a sexual assault. And the images that we’re seeing around the world are of the people who participated in that assault being celebrated. You know, they walk into the courtroom, the whole courtroom stands and cheers. What is going on? What are we seeing when we see that image?

NW 04:40

So it’s a unit called Force 100. Force 100 was dismantled during the Second Intifada because they killed Palestinian detainees. Then we start it over again, and I don’t know how much people know about the reserve army in the IDF, but a lot of unit is: A friend brings a friend. You make sure your friends are with you in your reserve unit. And a lot of those reservists serving in Force 100 are settlers. Some of them I know personally because they’re settlers from Hebron, where I’ve guided tours for the past 15 years. And one of them—actually, the guy that did the video—on the day the military police got inside, sent a man to detain them, he said: Come help us! Fight military police, protect us. I know him by his name because he attacked me so many times in Hebron, which was amazing because when I called the police in Hebron saying: Listen, there’s a settler over here attacking us, and he’s threatening us with an M16, they told me: Nadav, he’s post-traumatic for his army service, leave him alone. And I was like: Why he has an M16 if he’s post-traumatic? And now he’s a prison guard.

NW 05:40

So that happened. And immediately, dozens and then hundreds of right-wing activists, but also MKs, Parliament members from the extreme right wing, and ministers stormed the base, broke inside, and tried to stop the investigation. And you know what is the crazy part of it? The police didn’t come, and then they were taken to another base for interrogation, and the rioters went with them and broke into that military base, to the military prison. They broke into the military prison, and the police didn’t come. And that was a very, very clear message. First and foremost, they are heroes. Don’t interrogate them. Second of all, they did it to Hamas terrorists, and so, it’s okay because of what Hamas did to us on October 7th—although they’re obviously not Hamas terrorists, by the way. And maybe the most important thing is, it’s a part of the judicial overhaul that the right wing in Israel is trying to do. You need to put the Israeli law system on its knees—the military law system, the civilian law system, the Supreme Court, the regional court—on its knees. Because if you want to take Israel from a functioning democracy to an autocracy, the courts are in your way.

NW 06:53

I think one of the most important processes that happened in Israel in the last 58 years of occupation is the dehumanization of Palestinians. Even before October 7th, Palestinians were so dehumanized that targeted killing—our killing of a 14-year-old Palestinian kid playing soccer next to his house, got a bullet in the head from a settler, it wasn’t in the news in Israel. And after October 7th—because of Hamas atrocities, because of our hostages, because of the horrific stories from the Nova Festival, and from the kibbutzes and all of that—huge parts of the Israeli society just lost their ability to have empathy toward Palestinians. It is because, again, the dehumanization, but it’s also because of rooted racism in the Israeli society. And that’s why people are cheering them while they get inside the court.

AA 07:41

A lot of the testimonies that you are collecting run totally counter to the kind of propaganda efforts of the state. I mean, you have been collecting testimonies about the IDF using random Palestinians, some of them children, some of them elderly, as human shields, putting them in IDF uniforms and sending them to sweep an area for bombs or to draw sniper fire. Of course, this is always the story that is told about Hamas: Hamas uses human shields. Not only that, you’ve been talking from the beginning about the rules of engagement, basically saying that the army has no rules of engagement left. I mean, I’ll also say that I know from talking to other Breaking the Silence people that it’s not that there was ever a moral army, but it does seem as though there were some pretensions that have gone completely out the window. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that.

NW 08:48

First of all, I don’t know how an army can be moral, because your mission is immoral in its base. When I was a soldier, I served in a special forces unit in a sniper’s team between 2005 to 2008, and I fought all across the West Bank, but also in South Lebanon and in Gaza in 2008 and 2012. I remember that when we did the sniper operation inside Gaza in 2008, we felt like we were the moral occupiers because we took out the windows, the glass, and shot through the hole that was over there, and we didn’t shoot through the window. And we thought we were the moral occupiers. It’s after we blew up a hole in the back wall of the house to get inside, and after we took all of the men from 16 years old to 85 years old and put them on a truck and drove them into Israel for interrogation (not because they did something, but because they are Palestinian men above the age of 16), and we believed we were the moral occupiers. You cannot be a moral occupant.

NW 09:40

I think now I’ve got to say that the first testimony that we got about human shields was about December 2023. So from the start. And the first soldier that gave us the testimony, I said: Okay, it’s a rogue commander. We had two incidents like that in 2014 and an incident like that in 2009. But then, more and more soldiers came, and they all talked in this exact same language, but they served in different units at different times and different areas in the Gaza Strip. And all of them told us, there is a name to the protocol. It’s called mosquito protocol. You take the Palestinian. Sometimes you put them in an army uniform, sometimes you don’t put them in an army uniform, but he lives with you inside your house that you took in Gaza, and he does all of the dangerous things for you. Meaning you send them at gunpoint into a tunnel, or you send them at gunpoint into a house to sweep the house before you get inside, or you send them at gunpoint into the alley. And they told us that in their unit, there was a conversation between soldiers and their officers: What the hell are we doing over here? And the officers, it varied. Some of them told them: Listen, too many dogs in the canine unit died, and we don’t have enough drones to sweep every house, so, do you prefer that you will die or the Gazans will die? And in some units, they were told that they are all Hamas operatives, so they know the tunnels, or they know the houses, so that’s why they’re using them.

NW 11:03

And then, a couple of days later, you release them, and then the soldier understood that they’re not connected to Hamas, because why would we released them? And in one specific incident, a battalion commander came to the soldiers and said: Listen, you follow commands. Let me worry about war crimes. Which is an amazing thing to say as a commander, I’ve got to say. And that’s the mosquito protocol. But the thing with the mosquito protocol—it’s a protocol. It’s not a rogue commander or rogue commanders. It’s a protocol in the IDF, and that’s something that was very new to us as well. I remember us, Breaking the Silence, sitting, understanding that it’s true. It was really a breaking moment for me as somebody that is researching how we’re fighting in Gaza for the past nine years and a member of Breaking the Science for 15 years. It was something that I didn’t believe I’m going to hear.

NW 11:58

But also, it’s very coherent with one of the two doctrines that are leading the IDF when we fight in South Lebanon and in Gaza. One is the Dahiya Doctrine, and the other one is zero casualties to our soldiers. And zero casualties to our soldiers is something that I think you and I would agree. We don’t want soldiers to die. Especially, I don’t want my friends and relatives and my teammates from the army. But the thing is, if we take all of the dangerous parts of being an IDF soldier and put it on the other side, on the civilian side, so we won’t die, that’s not something you’re supposed to do. Another example is, before you sweep a house in Gaza, you do what we call a wet entry, which means that you will fire a shoulder rocket on the house or a tank shell, and then, after that explodes, you come to the door, you throw a grenade, it explodes, and then you enter while firing. So you will be perfectly safe. But if there are civilians inside that house, tough luck. I can give you 20 more examples, but that’s one of the main ideas of the IDF. As less casualties for us as possible. And you mentioned the Israeli mantra that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields, right? He’s firing behind Gaza and all of that. So all of the 39 years that I live, I live in Tel Aviv, and in the heart of Tel Aviv, prime real estate, there’s the headquarters of the IDF. You know where Central Northern Command is located? Inside the city. You know where South Command is located? Inside the city. And I can go on and on.

AA 13:18

I want to understand more about the testifiers. Who is the kind of person who testifies? Where are they in their political journey? You did a report that I read in the spring about the perimeter, about basically, the blanket razing of Gaza up to 1,300 meters inside the fence. And you have a political analysis that precedes the testimonies, and that political analysis doesn’t pull any punches—it’s a very left-wing analysis, that there’s no political solution to this, that the Israeli army is not trying to get hostages back, blah, blah, blah. I mean, obviously, for many people, this is very direct. You can’t draw any other conclusion from looking at it. But it does make me wonder whether the testifiers themselves are on board with these kinds of analyses at the moment that they’re giving their testimony. I mean, something that you notice when you read the testimonies together is that the soldiers are really holding on, in some cases, to the rationales that they were given for the things that they did, even as they are testifying. So they’re saying: Well, a lot of these houses had hostage material, things from the hostages, things from the kibbutzim in them, and the Breaking the Silence investigator will say: Well, how many of those were there? And they said: Oh, maybe a dozen or so. And the interviewer will say: But there were thousands of homes that were destroyed, trying to point to the collective punishment. And the soldier will say: Oh, but that was the rationale. It’s kind of unclear to me where a soldier is in their process when they are testifying, and how you encounter these soldiers.

NW 15:05

I’ve got to say that it’s super interesting because, when I gave a testimony, I served in a sniper’s team. Me and my team did a lot of bad things. We killed people, we stormed into houses, we abducted human beings, we searched for all kinds of things while demolishing houses of people. I dragged, I don’t know how many people from their beds. I did horrible things. But it took me three years to break my silence. And only when I sat in the testimony, right, which was a couple of hours, when you lay out all of your fears in your army service, only then I understood the magnitude of the things that I did. Because I thought about that operation that was bad or that human being that we shot, but then the interviewer in Breaking the Silence asked me about commands: What are the basic commands, or what is the routine, or how things look like, or how people reacted to me. And then, you understand that everything that you did was wrong. So a lot of time, it’s something that happens while you give a testimony. That’s before October 7th. Think about soldiers fighting in Gaza for six months, seven months, eight months, a year. So much death, destruction. And religious commanders are talking about a holy war against the infidels in Gaza, and the fact that there is the stench of death everywhere, and testifiers, talking about dogs running with parts of bodies in their mouths because that’s what they have to eat, and there’s bodies everywhere.

NV 16:30

That’s on one side, and on the other side, inside Israel, everybody’s so proud of you. You know, people give you free falafel when you walk down the street because you have an army uniform. Like, you don’t pay for anything. Everywhere there are signs like: We support our soldiers. And your family, they breathe again because you’re home and you’re not dead or abducted or I don’t know what. And between that, they choose to break the bond of silence about what the IDF does in Gaza and speak with us. And when they do so, and you can hear it in a lot of the testimonies, they say: Listen, I didn’t tell this thing to my partner, or to my best friend, or my mother. I can’t believe I’m talking about this. Because we are very good in helping the soldiers take out the stories out. We ask them questions. And it’s not like: Okay, so what were you wearing? Or how heavy was your bag? I was like: What was the command? How are the people from the unit treated? What was the response of your parents when you told them about what you did? All kinds of things like that. That helps people understand.

NV 17:38

And I’ve got to say that when the testifiers came to us about human shields, or about burning houses in Gaza, which became, again, a standard protocol, you can see in their eyes that they are understanding because they’re talking about it. Again, when you go back home, and everyone tells you you’re a hero, they also tell you: Shut up, we don’t want to hear what happened on the other side. We’re happy you’re here. And I’ve got to say, something very interesting that we saw with our testifiers now is that, first of all, the right-wing political side of Israel gave us testimonies, and even settlers gave us testimonies after October 7th. Settlers that served in Gaza and also reservists—suddenly very old reservists are coming to give us testimonies. Very high-ranking reservists, actually, the most high-ranking individuals that ever broke their silence happened in the last couple of months. So I can say that something happened during the interview. But more than that, it happens after the interview. You know, after a session of five hours, of two sessions of five hours, in some cases, three and four sessions of five hours. Those are the testimonies now. They started to digest what they did. And something interesting that we’re seeing about it is a lot of the people that gave us testimony, that was the beginning. After that, they became active in other organizations, or in protests, or flying abroad and talking with Jewish communities around the world about what is happening over here. Breaking their silence was the first step. What used to be the most radical thing that they can do inside Israel, now it becomes the first step.

AA 19:06

I think, for a lot of people who are listening to this podcast, a lot of what you said is going to be very challenging. I mean, also just recognizing all of the horrible things that you’ve done. There isn’t any accountability for individuals who participate in this stuff, and that impunity goes from the lowest levels up to the highest. On the one hand, you have this Arendtian idea that it’s like the banality of evil, that people are following orders. You have the kind of Zone of Interest-type thing, where it’s like people are living these loving family lives, and, on the other hand, are murderers. I think it’s very challenging for people on the outside to digest this, or to know what to make of this, or to know what to do with it. So, I have two questions for you, and I’ll take them one at a time. One is: What does accountability actually look like? And I mean this from the top to the bottom. I mean, right now, the ICC is issuing arrest warrants for the top, but there are also groups like the Hind Rajab Foundation, who, in Brazil, and Thailand, and Chile, they’ve gone after soldiers. In one case, a reserve soldier fled in the middle of the night with the help of the Israeli government to avoid arrest—actually, for destruction, like what you’ve documented in your perimeter report—and he had to flee from Brazil. They’re claiming, quote, unquote, “universal jurisdiction”—that these crimes are so severe that anyone in any country can prosecute for them. I think a lot of people listening to this podcast would be in support of this. I mean, in an environment where there’s no accountability anywhere, and where Israeli society itself doesn’t seem to process what it has done, let’s push on every lever.

NW 20:58

So, first and foremost, yes. I think that Israelis, just like any other country around the world, we are under the international humanitarian law, and the ICC has jurisdiction—the ICC and the ICJ. I think that international tribunals like that are super important. It’s crucial that we have those kind of investigations, and impunity is something that we are dealing with a lot in our testimonies. Soldiers are talking about it, but also in our political work, because half of what we’re doing in Breaking the Silence is to collect the testimonies, verify them, cross-check them, and, because of the laws in Israel, get an authorization from military censorship, and then publish them. That’s 50% of what we’re doing. The other 50% is political work: political education, advocacy, and we’re explaining to people that our governments—not only this government—our government, the only option that they give us with the relationship between Israelis and Gazans, it’s more missiles. It’s more death and more destruction. Right from the beginning of the occupation in ’67, that’s what we’re doing in Gaza, and it doesn’t work. And what we ask from our leaders is to give us other things that are not only missiles. And that’s why, for us, it’s so important to build an alternative archive to the occupation.

NW 22:10

Now, impunity. Who gives us the commands? Who decides the tactics that the IDF is going to use? People that did bad things in the high command of the IDF should be questioned, but also, according to the ICC—people that are being sent to court to the ICC, it’s not the foot soldier or not even the platoon commander, unless he did a massacre on his own. It’s the high command of the IDF, and the war cabinet in Israel, and the defense minister, and chief staff of the IDF which got an arrest warrant, an international arrest warrant. And that’s something that I learned only when I joined Breaking the Silence. Because before I joined Breaking the Silence, I thought that ICC is court-martialing foot soldiers, because that’s what I was told. Because that’s what everybody in Israel thinks. That’s one of the reasons they hate Breaking the Silence and other human rights organizations, like: Ugh, you’re taking the dirty laundry outside of Israel, now everybody knows. I think our job became a lot harder because soldiers are reluctant to talk, because they think about what will happen later. In the beginning of this war, it was very easy for me to ask our testifiers to be interviewed, full face and name, to international media. Now it’s impossible because of the work of the Hind Rijab Foundation, which, I don’t find it illegal or illegitimate, but our testifiers, they don’t want their faces out there because they’re afraid.

NW 23:27

And the thing is, like that incident you said before, about the soldier that was arrested or was almost arrested in Brazil, that happens because in Israel, we live in a bubble. And in that bubble, your officers are telling you that the command is kosher. Your family is supportive because you’re a hero fighting Hamas. Everybody around you is like: Yeah, let’s kill more Hamas snakes and release our hostages. And then the mission you get is to blow up 18 residential houses in a neighborhood in Shuja’iyya. So, of course, you will take a video of that, and put it on your social media, and get likes, and put a photo of yourself with a weapon inside Gaza in one of the dating apps. And you’ll be proud of it because that’s the atmosphere in Israel. Which is hard, because being a political activist, like a super lefty in Israel, and then one day, on October 8th, you understand that your friends and family are talking about genocide without even blinking. In that situation, of course, you will upload a video to social media, and of course you will take a flight to Brazil because you want a vacation. Then, reality would slap you in the face.

AA 24:28

I think that’s a good segue into my last question. I think that a lot of people now are looking toward the end of World War II and to the denazification process that happened after the Allies advanced on Germany. As we know, it was a very Incomplete process and definitely varied across whether it was Soviet territory or American territory and whatever. But there was an attempt to denazify the German public and to differentiate between people who were really hardcore and people who weren’t. I mean, for me, when I look at Israeli society, it’s very hard to make that distinction. There are very, very, very few leftists who are actually active, and then there’s everyone else, on some level. I mean, the extent to which regular quote, unquote, “liberals” have become genocidal is pretty clear from the outside. And so, what does it mean to de-Zionize, denazify, deradicalize, however you want to call it, in the aftermath of this? And also, what are the prospects for something like that, considering there is no military pressure to do so? I mean, Israel, for all intents and purposes—and at least the story that it’s telling about itself—is that it won the war. So there’s no real reason to undertake some kind of process. The only thing that would do that is some kind of internal reckoning that there’s no pressure to take place. So I’m just curious for you, when you talk about watching the people around you become genocidal, what does that mean for the future of Israeli society? What does it mean for the prospect of reversing this course or trying to reintegrate into a global community at some future date?

NW 26:21

Oh, that’s a great question. I think we need an hour for my answer. But first of all, before Breaking the Silence, I was a schoolteacher. I taught history in high schools in Israel. And there’s a law in the education ministry in Israel that in every classroom, next to the board, where you look for 12 years, you need to have a flag of Israel, the national anthem, and the map of Israel. But the map of Israel is without the green line and without the names of Palestinian villages, towns, or cities, unless there was a synagogue over there in biblical time. So what you see for 12 years in front of you is from the river to the sea, Israel. Palestinians: They don’t exist. And even more than that, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan are blurred, so Israel looks like an island. You live in an island. And in our history books, Palestinians before 1948 are referred in our history books as street gangs. And when there is a clash between the Zionist national movement and the Palestinian national movement is being referred to as pogroms, like the Palestinians are just another antisemite. It’s not two national movements fighting for the same piece of land. And there is a huge gap of years that you don’t teach until basically 1929. So you don’t teach about Palestinian culture, Palestinian language, Palestinian national movement. And I’ve got to say that civic class in Israel as well, in high schools, nobody talks to you about occupation, about the military regime that we run in our backyard for 58 years. When they train you, before you go to the IDF, nobody talks with you about guarding settlements. Nobody tells you what it is to enforce military law on Palestinians. They tell you about heroic fights in the 1967 War in the Golan Heights. And our politicians are talking about Palestinians like they are not human beings. The Israeli media doesn’t show us the West Bank or Gaza unless somebody stabbed a soldier or a settler.

NW 28:16

So that’s the atmosphere in Israel. I think that the deradicalization of Israel is something very, very, very deep-rooted, radical that we need to do, which means that we need to change our history books, and we need to change the way we’re talking to Palestinians, and the army needs to actually educate the soldiers: What is A, B and C territories, or what is the Geneva Convention, or what is the international humanitarian law, which they don’t tell us. But first and foremost, we need the leaders of our political camp, the liberal democratic camp in Israel, to talk about the occupation, to recognize that Palestinians have self-determination just like we have, and they deserve their own state like we had. And there are human beings like me and you, and they have dreams, and ambitions, and fantasies, and they are hungry, or they are sleepy, or they are sad. They are not only terrorists. And at this moment, the leaders of my political camp, the leader of the opposition, Yair Lapid, is not talking like that, or Benny Gantz, or Gadi Eisenkot, or Avigdor Lieberman, which, I don’t know what is their position. And the majority of Israelis, they don’t even hear that. They just don’t understand. We have a problem. They believe that everybody wants to kill us, and we are in the middle of the jungle, which is a super racist saying that everybody in Israel is saying, and everybody wants to kill us because we are Jewish, not because we act like a small empire over here in the Middle East, that we can shoot everywhere until we fire the missile on Qatar and then Trump said “that’s it.”

NW 29:45

And that’s the thing. We didn’t see a limitation to our power until now. The actual fact is that we are not a sovereign power anymore. And it’s a good thing. It’s really a good thing because this is what really stopped us. And that’s the limitation of power. We need the help of our friends from around the world to tell us: Hey, you’re drunk, get out of the car, go drink some water, and bye, bye. We need the member states in the EU, but we also need our biggest ally on planet Earth, the US, to stop us. Which, it’s crazy that all of the years that the Democrats were in power and they had the same power to tell Bibi: No, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop. I won’t send you missiles, I won’t protect you anymore. Stop. And that’s the beginning of the change that we need in Israel. But the process is so feral that we need, I don’t know if to tell you a generation or two generations.

AA 30:40

The last question that I have for you—I mean, I know that you guys do a lot of advocacy, you talk to a lot of people high up in European governments, in American governments. I’m wondering what the largest misconception is that you encounter among American politicians and political actors here. What are they confused about? What are you surprised to hear them say?

NW 31:03

That Israel does anything in our power to prevent civilian casualties in Gaza. That it’s a war, and in war, there’s problems. You know: A missile goes over there, a missile goes over there, and we didn’t intend to do so, or it’s not in the command. American partners that I met really believe that we do everything in our power not to harm civilians. And that was an eye-opening experience for them, to hear our testifiers and to hear the testimonies that we brought.

AA 31:28

I mean, that’s really wild to hear. With everything that’s out there, that people who should be the most educated on this issue because they’re voting on it—I would imagine that most politicians, you would think they have a cynical calculus that they’re making, that it doesn’t actually matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, they have to support it. But to say that they actually believe that the Israeli army is doing the best it can not to kill civilians, that’s another story.

NW 31:58

But think about who they meet: Our diplomats, our politicians, and officers from the IDF, all of them tell them: Listen, it’s not in the commands to shoot like this or to shoot like that. And I think it’s very important that we have allies around the world, but I want our allies to tell us that’s too much, and it was too much years ago.

AA 32:20

Nadav, thank you so much for joining me. This has been another episode of On the Nose. Thank you to our editor, Jesse Brenneman. If you like this episode, share it and leave us a review, and subscribe to Jewish Currents, jewishcurrents.org. Thanks a lot. See you next time, everyone.