Arielle Angel 00:00

Hello, and welcome back to On the Nose, the Jewish Currents podcast. I’m Arielle Angel, editor-in-chief of Jewish Currents. Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that we’re planning on doing a mailbag episode before the end of the summer. So we encourage you, listeners at home, to send us your questions. Whether it’s on our core beats or something totally different—really, anything that you’d like to hear the Jewish Currents staff discuss on the podcast—we want to hear from you. So send your questions to editor@jewishcurrents.org with the subject “mailbag,” and you can even record your questions in a voice note if you’d like us to play it on the podcast.

AA 00:48

In this episode, which first appeared on the Beinart Notebook on Substack, editor-at-large Peter Beinart speaks to children’s television star Rachel Griffin Accurso, better known to her fans as Ms. Rachel, about her advocacy for Palestinian children in Gaza, tens of thousands of whom have been maimed or killed by Israel over the last 22 months, with many more enduring a relentless campaign of starvation. Ms. Rachel, who has been called this generation’s Mr. Rogers, began speaking out in May 2024 when she participated in a Save the Children fundraiser for children in conflict zones, including Gaza. The backlash from pro-Israel groups and individuals was so pronounced that Ms. Rachel soon posted a teary video discussing the bullying she was receiving. In a particularly deranged turn of events in April, the doxxing outfit Stop Antisemitism formally requested that the Department of Justice investigate Ms. Rachel to determine if she was, quote, “being remunerated to disseminate Hamas-aligned propaganda to her millions of followers,” end quote. But Ms. Rachel has not stopped insisting that Palestinian children, like all children, deserve safety and care. In May, she invited a three-year-old double amputee from Gaza named Rahaf onto her show. Without further ado, here’s Peter Beinart and Ms. Rachel.

Peter Beinart 2:13

I’m really honored today to be joined by Rachel Griffin Accurso, who’s better known to the public as Ms. Rachel. I’m really embarrassed to say that I wasn’t really familiar, Rachel, with your work. And then I told my daughter and some other people that you and I had been exchanging some messages, and they were astonished that I knew someone as famous, and as important, and as beloved as you.

Rachel Griffin Accurso 2:39

Same for me, but from the beginning.

PB 2:43

So, Rachel, let me just start with this question of how you first became aware and became interested in what’s happening to children in the Gaza Strip.

RGA 2:53

So, like a lot of people, I was seeing the horrific images and videos on social media. I use social media a lot for work, and that was happening. And then, I work with Save the Children, and the CEO had a briefing with me about the Congo one week, and then they were like: She’s coming back from Gaza. Do you want to talk to her? And I was like: Oh, definitely. And I usually just ask her: What’s it like to be a child where you just went? Just describe it to me. So she was describing it, and I just—I couldn’t stop learning and trying to understand. I think my religion and spirituality since I was younger has been like: How can I use the gifts that I have to help? Can I use the gifts I have to help these different things? And since then, I’ve joined with more organizations, and it’s been really helpful to talk with different organizations, and work with them, and understand. Because they’ll be like: We were just talking to people on the ground, and so to have that info and not be just trying to read and guess, that’s been really helpful.

PB 3:55

Was there anything, when you had those conversations with people who’ve been on the ground, that really struck you, that really resonated with you?

RGA 4:03

I think just saying that children in Gaza were just wandering around with no guardians. No people to help them, just like, walking through rubble, and just that image of them not having their caregivers.

PB 4:20

Yeah. How did you come to actually start working with Palestinian kids from Gaza yourself?

RGA 4:26

So the Palestine Children’s Relief Fund, PCRF—someone from that organization contacted me, and we had a Zoom, and it was really inspiring. And I think that may have been my first time talking with Palestinians. And they told me about a little girl, Rahaf, who is three, and they said: [She’s] a double-amputee, and she’s here with her mom, and she loves your show. And they said: Would you meet her? And I was like: I would love to meet her. So she scheduled a visit, and the first day with her, I wanted to just have her have the best day, and have so much fun, and not have anything we had to do. I just wanted to play, and we had such a blast, and that was just so wonderful. And I think playing with her, and seeing both her resilience and her adorableness, and just how bright her spirit is—and then also, on the other hand, seeing how it is challenging for her to move now, and one of her legs is amputated quite high. And sitting with her mom and thinking about—that we’re both teachers, and just talking to her boys back in Gaza. Sitting with her and seeing the pride on her face when she looked at her son. It’s like, you recognize things. I was like: I recognize that pride. That’s how I look at Thomas, my son. And then, seeing the anguish: not being with them and being able to protect them. It was so excruciating, thinking about what she must be going through. And then, I was like: I think I’m gonna really imagine, if I had my daughter here and she had both legs amputated, and then my son was in Gaza with my husband, and I couldn’t feed him and comfort him—I think there’s nothing more excruciating as a parent than thinking about being separated from your children or losing your children. So I think my advocacy moved way up after that meeting, and I think it just changes everything when you sit with people.

PB 6:26

Can I ask you a little bit more about Rahaf—about her story, about what happened to her, how it was that she was able to get to the United States, and what it was like to get to know her a little bit?

RGA 6:36

She came through the PCRF, and they were able to do a lot of evacuations, and now, they can’t evacuate people. I did see a little girl online, and she was starving and had some other kind of condition, and they were able to get her out, I think a few months ago, and that was the last they could get kids out, but they were able to get her and her mom out. She lost her legs in an airstrike, and she has wonderful treatment and a wonderful team of therapists helping her. And you see her thriving, and I think that’s something that also, as someone who’s in child development, makes a light bulb go off. Like: Okay, here’s this little girl. This happened to her. And if she was still in Gaza, you know, I don’t know what her future would be. And now that she has her human rights of medical care, and—I mean, she is separated from her family, so she doesn’t have everything, but she has food, and she has school, and she’s so bright, and she’s just thriving. So to me, it seems so obvious that if we give children their human rights and we treat children well, then they’re going to thrive, and if we don’t, they don’t. And that would benefit all of us. I think all of us parents can think and put ourselves in the situation of a parent.

PB 7:54

I mean, a lot of people see images of kids being killed, or terribly wounded, or starved in Gaza and know that it’s wrong, and know that it’s horrifying. But I wonder if you want to say something about, given your expertise in child development in particular, what you notice and what you think about when you think about the consequences for kids of enduring this level of trauma.

RGA 8:19

I often think about prenatally, as such a critical time, and the moms don’t have the nutrients they need, and they are going through trauma. So research shows that that can affect the baby. And then, I think as a mom of a little baby right now that gets formula (and I breastfed my last child), your mind just goes to like: The moms can’t breastfeed, and then the babies aren’t getting the formula. And trauma from zero to three, it’s just such a critical time for the brain. It’s developing so rapidly. And you have adults that are going through the unimaginable, too. And I’m sure they play, and they do everything they can to still make things normal, but they’re not in a normal situation. They’re in such a traumatic situation. So they have trauma. The kids have the trauma of the airstrikes. And so trauma and malnutrition are both just not a good environment for brain development. And just to think about this whole generation of kids that have been malnourished, traumatized, don’t have the safety. I just think, like I said on CNN, that I just wish we could give them everything they need, wrap them up in love, get them into preschool, and it’s just so tough.

PB 9:33

I’m just wondering if you can talk about the thought process that you went through about deciding to speak very publicly about this, and what kind of fears you had. Were there any people who warned you not to do this because the consequences might be negative?

RGA 9:50

I think it was about a year and a half ago when I started talking about it. It’s gotten easier. I think at the beginning, people were saying: Let experts talk. Let people who understand the history. This isn’t a time for everyone to speak. Then there was the idea: If you become controversial and you lose your platform, you can’t help kids anymore. They were saying to me: You’re not going to be able to help this situation because no one can help, basically, because it’s too horrible. And then, you’re going to lose your platform to help kids you can help. And for a while, that argument made sense to me. And I was thinking: I can’t do anything, and I’m going to ruin everything, and I’m not going to help any kids. And then I just was moved, and I prayed, and certain images and kids just—I just felt like I had to say something. And I said: Let me do a fundraiser for kids in emergency areas with Save the Children. I thought that would be seen by everyone as something good. The money was going to children in Sudan, the Congo, Haiti, Ukraine, and Gaza. And I felt like I was doing something for kids in emergency situations and that people would know that I love children equally, and I did get tons of backlash for that.

PB 11:12

From who, Rachel? Just people online?

RGA 11:14

There were articles that were like: Ms. Rachel does fundraiser for all kids but Israeli kids. And Save the Children—I was doing it with them, and they were like: We actually don’t have a Save the Children in Israel because they have their own programs. So then, there were many email campaigns against me and stuff. And my sister said: You know it’s your choice, right? Like, you own your company, and you are Ms. Rachel, and, ultimately, it’s your choice. So I think I had to realize that my morals and ethics were more important to me than anything else. And I know that I’m in a privileged position because there are people that, if they speak out, will face serious consequences, like immigrants or people on a student visa. I know that I am in that area of privilege where we’ve made enough money for my family, and so, I knew we would be okay. And there was something that dawned on me that was a little funny at one point, which was that, like, Bluey wasn’t going to speak up for kids in need, and Mickey Mouse wasn’t going to, and that, like: Oh, I’m the kids’ TV show that actually is a person. So is this my responsibility?

RGA 12:29

And I think, when you have a calling from God (which is how I feel, and, you know, if you’re not religious, it could be just like a moral calling), that you keep acting. I feel like I come back to children in need all the time, and I come back to kids in Gaza, and I just find myself being moved to do things without thinking about it. And to me, that’s God working in me. I do feel like, when I was with Rahaf before I met with her, I was praying, and I felt very clear that I’m doing the right thing. Also, I think like, in my religion, there’s the world, and then there’s the peace of God, which is beyond understanding. So it’s like, if there’s all this chaos around me, like: You’re a bad person, I hate you, you hate children. It’s swirling around you, and then, it’s like: Well, I do have the peace of God that surpasses understanding, so let me come back to that. And then, there’s passages about—if you gain the whole world but lose your soul. So you’re kind of like: Well, my soul, and my spirituality, and my work with kids is what I really care about—how this stuff of the world isn’t that valuable. But then, if you get to the point where you’re worried about threats, you’re like: Well, I want to be safe, you know? So it’s just a lot.

PB 13:47

I really identify with what you’re saying. I have this practice in synagogue on Shabbat, during the repetition of the Musaf Amidah. Basically, there’s a moment of time where I usually just try to pause and try to ask a question and see if I hear some kind of answer. And it’s usually very general, kind of like: Am I doing okay? What should I be doing? Or something like that. But I’m curious what that—if you don’t mind, if I can ask what that experience of prayer is like for you. Like, what it does for you, and what that experience is like as you’re trying to center yourself and figure out what to do.

RGA 14:22

Yeah. So I always say: How can I serve? Because to me, something central throughout my life has been trying to use my gifts to serve others and serve God. And then, with Rahaf, I just—I think, sometimes I think about the strength of God. Because I feel like I can’t be with this little girl who’s been through a war. Like, what can I give? And then if I think about: God, can you help me just be with her, and just—can I help her have the best day? I do think that the spirituality really helps me. I was talking with someone from JFREJ, and they were telling me about, in the Jewish writing, that every life is a universe, and I thought that was just so gorgeous. And I’ve used that, because I know my son is my world, and my daughter’s my world. And so, thinking about that life—I see every Israeli child like that, and I see every Palestinian child like that. I also think about the James Baldwin quote, of like: The children are all ours. Every child I see everywhere, I just see as the most precious child in the world. I think, with everything that’s happened, I think being on the side of kids and civilians and not on the side of guns and violence is always right to me. I know that it’s not that simple, but there’s this UN Convention on Children’s Rights that I read and think about a lot, because I just wish we followed it. Because experts came together and said everything we need to do to help children thrive, and they’re supposed to be protected during war, and not taken hostage, and not killed, and not starved. So if we just follow that guideline.

PB 16:10

We had a question about whether there were any particular people in your life, in addition to your faith, that were inspirations for you, either people you knew or people, historical figures, that you look to for guidance or inspiration?

RGA 16:22

Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, I learned a lot from you. I used to just listen to your videos while I cleaned and stuff. And I sent Rania, our friend, I was like: I really like this guy, you should check him out! She’s like: He’s my friend, do you want to talk to him? So, that happened. But Mr. Rogers, of course, I’ve always just loved him. I don’t know if you guys have seen the documentary of him, but I took a screenshot of that pool moment. Pools were still segregated, and some people were doing this horrific thing where they were throwing chemicals into pools that Black people were swimming in, to try and get them to leave. And so, Mr. Rogers shared a kiddie pool with a Black actor on the show, Officer Clemmons. He invited him: Hey, it’s hot, do you want to put your feet in the water with me? And then he shared his towel. He actually got a lot of backlash and hate for that, but I read that people, that made an impact on them. Like, this one man said that his family, that episode came on, and they were like: Huh, well, Mr. Rogers doesn’t mind sharing the pool with this Black man, and maybe we don’t have to—like, it can change perceptions. So when I would get backlash, or I get a lot of online hate (my husband and I are both banned from Reddit because people will be like: You’ve gained weight. You need Botox. You’re horrible. I threw my TV out the window because your voice is like a screeching owl), and it just kind of rolls off the back of my head. But when they say you hate certain children because they’re Jewish—some of our family, and much of my community is Jewish and Jewish children, and getting 2,000 emails that say I hate Jewish children, that was incredibly, incredibly painful. So I would cry, and then I’d look at that picture, and be like: I can do this, and I know I’m doing the right thing.

PB 18:15

One of the things I’m hearing from you that resonates with me is I think there’s something called exposure therapy, which is, like, when you’re exposed to something a bit, you become more resilient to it, oftentimes. And so, I feel like what I find is that people sometimes say to me: It must be so, so horrible to have people who are really angry at you. And I kind of feel like: Well, I’ve gotten used to it. Like, it doesn’t ruin my day to get some negative emails, and I feel like it sounds to me like you’ve going through a process where even though it’s still painful for you, you’re also realizing that people can get angry at you, people can do really, really nasty things to you, and you not only can survive, but actually, you know that what you did is the right thing. So, I feel like in some ways, once you go through that experience, I always tell people: It’s really not so bad, actually. It’s actually, really a gift.

RGA 19:07

Well, you’ve been doing this a long time. Because, yeah, I’m still at that stage where it stings, but it has stung less. Because everyone was telling me who I am, and I was like: Wait, I know who I am. I know I love all kids equally. I know that I’m not who they’re saying I am. And then, I felt like God knows who I am, and I felt like my friends know who I am. I think that it’s very extreme on the internet, and then most people are pretty kind and decent. Because after a lot of the backlash, I was kind of afraid to leave the house. I was speaking at NYU, and I thought I was going to get booed, and then I left the house, and the sun was out, and I didn’t get booed. And I was like: Oh, the world isn’t the internet, you know? I’ve never had someone come up to me and get upset about talking about Gaza in person. I’ve probably had 300 people come up and cry and hug me, from all walks of life, and say thank you. Both Palestinian and a lot of Jewish people (and some people that our views aren’t totally aligned on everything). We are just kind people that all want kids and grownups and people to just be okay, so I think that’s really important too. But, yeah, walking down the street, I was like: Oh, the internet is not real life. People will say a lot of things behind a keyboard. There’s dehumanization, there’s antisemitism, there’s Islamophobia, there’s anti-Palestinian hate, there’s anti-Arab hate. I mean, people will type the craziest things.

PB 20:43

Absolutely. Because they’re not really perceiving another person on the other side.

RGA 20:46

Yeah.

PB 20:47

And I think that liberates people from thinking about the effects of what they’re saying, or having to look at someone in the face. I totally agree with you. I think that’s the danger of this online world. I wondered if I could ask you a little bit about the experience of being a celebrity. It seems like you’re kind of an accidental celebrity, but you’re a really big celebrity. I’d like to think that people who get a lot of fame, or a lot of power, or a lot of money have the most freedom to do what they want and should be the least vulnerable or worried about the consequences. But I often find that it seems to me, often, the reverse, that it’s people who have the most to lose (like college students) who put themselves on the line, and there’s something about gaining power or fame or money that makes people so afraid of losing it. I just wonder, because I imagine you interact with other celebrities now, and most of them are not doing what you’re doing. And how do you explain that?

RGA 21:44

That’s the million-dollar question. It’s upsetting. I mean, I feel like I understand people at the beginning of their industry, or applying for a green card, or—but yeah, I don’t understand. I think some of the celebrities that are just like, they’re not cancelable—like they’re so famous that they’re not going to get canceled. And I tell you, I thought there was a very deep reason, and then I talked to a few celebrities and realized there wasn’t a super deep, understandable reason. And it was upsetting. I mean, I feel like sometimes, I’m in a nightmare where I’m telling people what’s happening and they can’t hear me, but then, it’s like they can hear me, and they’re not saying anything. So I don’t know what it is.

PB 22:30

When you talk to other celebrities, are they not aware of what’s happening, or are they confused about what they believe, or are they just concerned about the backlash?

RGA 22:40

I think it is opportunities, partnerships, and jobs. I think it seems, maybe, scarier than it is. I like to—I don’t like to brag, but I like to be, like: Hey, just reminding you we’re the number one Netflix kid show, just reminding you that my face is on this product, and everything’s okay. Just to remind people that we’re doing well. I’ve talked to a random friend that’s not a celebrity, that isn’t on social media, that’s getting the news through the mainstream news, and they don’t see all the people that I see—Palestinians themselves. I mean, right now, I just wish I could talk to more leaders and say: I have Palestinian moms begging me for formula through Instagram messages. I have kids sending me voice memos, kids in Gaza, being like: Hi, Ms. Rachel. I lost my family. Will you stay with me? Hi, Ms. Rachel. Thank you for seeing us. And, you know, I’ve tried to message people on Instagram that are senators and stuff, and it gets bounced back, like: Contact my office. And I’m like: Your messages aren’t open to people begging for their baby not to die. It’s so mind-boggling to me that I get a message from a mom whose baby’s starving, and then I text my friend Tarek, and he works at PCRF, and he tries to find that mom. And PCRF buys formula for a very high price, and then, they try and get it to one baby. And I’m like: Why are me and Tarek buying things? Why aren’t we just getting the aid to the babies that’s miles away (and the grownups, as people are reminding me to say, that’s so important, too)?

PB 24:22

Yeah, yeah. Given the schools that I went to and the age that I am, I know people who are now in prominent, powerful positions, especially in the Democratic Party. And I know a lot of people who are in very prominent positions in the American Jewish community. And I hear the things that they’re saying and see the things that they’re doing, and I’m thinking: Why can’t they make the connection between what they’re doing on a daily basis and the way in which they are contributing to a child starving to death, or a child having their limbs amputated, or a family losing dozens? Because to me, the answer is so clear. They don’t say: I want the Palestinians to starve to death. They just go through a whole series of rhetorical maneuvers and do a whole series of things to maintain a status quo. And sometimes, I want to say to them: Have you ever tried to imagine what it would be if you were in that position? Because the human acknowledgment that just envelops you, it seems to be so completely absent from this conversation, which is so inhuman. And to me, it’s astonishing, that discrepancy.

RGA 25:32

It is so astonishing, and the amount of people that feel like us. I was in a southern state, and I think people had a different view politically of me, and they were very passionate about kids in Gaza. It seems like it’s a lot of people, and I think that it might be dehumanization, because I will say somebody said a racist joke to me about Palestinians once, and it was about the value of their lives not being as valuable, but like a joke. It was really just horrific. And they’re Ivy League educated. But also, I talked to and have done Zooms with James Elder, who works with UNICEF, and he said: I’ve never had to start at square one, where I explain that they’re human, and the kids are human, and that I’m sitting with a little boy who’s burned, and he doesn’t have painkillers, and his dad’s here with him crying, and they’re both humans. When I posted little kids watching Ms. Rachel in Gaza, I did get a few comments that were like: This made me realize that they’re like my kids. So, I think there are people who are like: These lives aren’t as valuable. And I did have a Palestinian mom say: Thank you for seeing our children as human. And that is so hard to hear. I mean, it’s so excruciating. I did have an experience trying to take Rahaf to a certain kid’s place and them not wanting her to come. And I said: That is illegal. Because we were going to rent the whole place, and there wasn’t going to be press or photos or anything. It’s just like, you can rent a place in New York and have people there. It’s illegal to be, like: You can’t come because you’re a certain race or religion. But they had a Palestinian employee there. I just can’t imagine how that employee felt, being like: We can’t have people like you here.

PB 27:34

Rachel, you’ve gotten so many responses from so many people who appreciate what you’ve done, and who are also telling you about their experience. I wonder if there’s one particular interaction you’ve had since you started speaking out about this that really, really sticks in your mind.

RGA 27:46

You know, I think it would have to be singing and dancing with Rahaf and just being joyful with her. She has the prosthetics, and like I said, one of her legs is really high. And she falls a lot. And I said to her host family and her mom: Should I spot her? They were like: No, let her fall because she wants to be independent. And so she would fall, and my husband was making her laugh, and there’s a video of this on my Instagram. And then she’d jump into my arms, and then she’d go back to him, and he’d make her laugh, and then she’d jump into my arms, and then she went back to him. He made her laugh, and she fell, like, on her face. And then she just gets up and jumps back into my arms. And she’s just so strong and resilient, and she shouldn’t have to be resilient. I always say that. This shouldn’t have happened. But her host family showed me a video where—she has sisters now, her host sisters, and they’re just incredible. So they were cheering (Rahaf! Rahaf!) in this video, and Rahaf’s trying to get on the stool with just her arm strength, and it’s a high stool, and the mom’s cooking, and they’re all cheering (Rahaf! Rahaf!), and she just gets higher and higher on the stool. And then she—she gets to the top, and you’re just seeing, they’re so loving, and they’ve welcomed her into their home. You do see humans can rise to the best of humanity, you know?

PB 29:10

Well, Rachel, I think that’s a good description of you: the best of humanity.

RGA 29:13

Aw, you’re too kind.

PB 29:15

I’m really grateful to you for doing this.

RGA 29:16

Thanks. I’m sorry, I went on this podcast called Kylie Kelce, and it’s like the super fun Mom, silly awesome podcast. And I started crying, and I was like: I’m not the first to cry on this podcast, am I? And she was like: Uh-huh. And I was like: Oh, no.

PB 29:32

I mean, there’s good reason to cry, you know? But also to act, which is what you’re doing. And God bless you.

RGA 29:39

God bless you as well. Thank you so much.

AA 29:46

This has been another episode of On the Nose. Thank you to our editor, Jesse Brenneman. If you like this episode, share it, leave us a review, and subscribe to Jewish Currents, JewishCurrents.org. Don’t forget to send us your questions. And hang in there, everyone.